Re: a new trend?

**LordKelvin** · 09-30-2009, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Aumen1

Oh really, huh I perceived it as if the speed was increased, but I don't know how you would tell - hmm, Lyra?

And Crux I did not mean for it to be directly compared to roflcoptering - but if I had you would be right, that would be ludicrous. In fact my rhetorical statement was simple; ie just because things seem annoying does not mean we need to ban them or make a new rule.

Cheers,
A

Actually, Aumen, most of the TG server rules are in place to foster teamwork and provide an enjoyable game experience for the greatest number of people. If there is an action that people are preforming that not only goes against the spirit of the Primer but also is a major annoyance and detracts from the game experience for a large number of people, then it is in fact extremely necessary to make a rule addressing it.

And bunnyflopping is obviously meeting the above criteria because if it was a minor passing annoyance there wouldn't be this huge debate about it nor hordes of people pressing for admin action against it.

**Catman1975** · 09-30-2009, 10:12 AM

Seriously 12 pages debating on bunny flopping?

Lyra's video showed a mild example of the bunny flopping I've seen on the server.

I had someone out in the open, go prone shoot at me, by the time I right clicked to sight them in, they were up and running right at me, I right clicked to track them, they went prone as soon as they went past me-shot me, as I'm turning to get a fix on them, they are up and behind me again going prone to finish me off.

This is ludicrous, it ruins the element of playing a game as if it was your life on the line, it was an abuse of game mechanics to get an advantage on a player. I don't want to hear that "you need to be a better player", "a descent player would have killed them", "how could he have gotten that close and killed you without you killing him" crap. The point is, it's bunny hopping in the opposite fashion, going prone instead of jumping. With bunny hopping the only advantage is that it makes it harder to hit you, you can't shoot while in the air and your gun deviation is thrown off, with bunny flopping, you get the advantage of being harder to hit AND you get the benefit of being able to shoot when you're prone.

What is difficult about this?

and in regards to needing a definition for those trying to find a loophole, I'd say proning and standing more than 2-3 times during a single firefight.

**spiff913** · 09-30-2009, 10:21 AM

Good points, Kelvin.

You've reminded me of the "Great Rooftopping Debate". Now THAT was a drama, let me tell you. Rooftop camping was a MAJOR annoyance, that ruined entire rounds of play, and made certain maps borderline unplayable.

Compared to that, maybe bunnyflopping is relatively minor after all. It is still annoying, but not on that level.

My point is that it took something as bad as rooftopping to prompt the admins to make a new rule. Even then the rule was not what you would call heavy-handed. I think they handled it perfectly. Of course it helped that one of the 2142 patches made it impossible to steer pods effectively.

I think it is great that we are having this discussion, and I hope it continues. But I'm keeping my expectations in check when it comes to new rules.

**MrJengles** · 09-30-2009, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Catman1975

With bunny hopping the only advantage is that it makes it harder to hit you, you can't shoot while in the air and your gun deviation is thrown off, with bunny flopping, you get the advantage of being harder to hit AND you get the benefit of being able to shoot when you're prone.

Originally Posted by MrJengles

The very fine difference between "bunny hopping" and "bunny flopping" is that you end up on the ground when you dive...which reduces your dodging capability after said movement drastically. Yes, part of the flopping is then to get straight back up, but as someone else has already said, it takes more buttons to do that than jumping. This results in taking more time to perform a flop, than a hop. Both by user input time and 2 seperate animations. It also results in more of a penalty than a hop, because you cannot fire for a brief period during either of the 2 animatons, rather than the single hop.

You can shoot from the ground but then you are left rather immobile, which makes you an easy target. You can get up, but then you perform 2 animations so your gun deviation is thrown off twice. Also, bunny hopping moves you forwards about the same speed as running, so will get you to cover quickly. Diving will move you forwards a tiny bit if you were running at the time I think, but that's expected of a dive. All the same, you're pretty much mainly going up and down, which is much worse than going up and down AND moving forwards as if you were still running. On a side note you also get headshotted often enough to take notice of that risk, when diving.

- - - - - - -

Originally Posted by Catman1975

and in regards to needing a definition for those trying to find a loophole, I'd say proning and standing more than 2-3 times during a single firefight.

A firefight is also very vague... what happens when more people join in shooting at you a second after you killed the last guy? New firefight? One person gets killed, but revived, new firefight?

Or if fighting at range, I could prone 4 times behind the same piece of cover -or twice behind different pieces and a couple while running between them- and as long as it is before either of us get killed: suddenly I'm bunny flopping.

- - - - - - -

Originally Posted by MrTango

and I think that video was only a borderline version. If it were a rule, I wouldn't report that. I have seen it done more often in MUCH more rapid succession.
there have been several great definitions in here of what a bunny flop is

Originally Posted by BarrytBaptist

I agree. I was hoping to make a video tonight but I am unable to get any files of TG server from last night. We need to see a video that clearly displays "bunny flop/hop"

Originally Posted by MrJengles

So what you are left with is a judgement call, which is not a rule. You could easily get a reporting wrong.

Originally Posted by MrJengles

Exactly as Sharingan is saying. If the proposed ban is clear then why is there discussion about whether it was broken or not? That's just one example... imagine the multitude found in a week. Players can't be getting called on false reports half the time, and even then, how do the admins decide who was right?

That's going to be a hard enough environment for TG people, but if WE can't even get the rules straight, what about how everyone else on the server would feel?

Circles...

- - - - - - -

Originally Posted by Lorax74

I merged the "new trend" thread and the "hitbox glitching" thread. Though both started out as separate and independent ideas, they both went in the same direction and basically became the same conversation.

This thread is now worth 12 cents apparently XD I'm not used to hearing the expression so much

**Crux** · 09-30-2009, 12:09 PM

Shotgun does not deviate when you go prone. This is why you see the 'big time' shotgun players around here dive to the ground at the start of every CBQ fight when they are carrying a shotgun. Their enemy's target is immediate thrown off and they suffer no penalty for it.

And I've yet to see a good refutation of the definition of bunnyflopping I provided earlier. All I get is "it is subjective". Anyone who has ever seen true bunnyflopping wouldn't consider it a gray area. It's really clear. And obvious. And I'm beginning to wonder whether the people arguing so vehemently against a rule either just don't understand it or have a tendency to prone constantly themselves and want their actions to remand unhindered.

**MrJengles** · 09-30-2009, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

Shotgun does not deviate when you go prone. This is why you see the 'big time' shotgun players around here dive to the ground at the start of every CBQ fight when they are carrying a shotgun. Their enemy's target is immediate thrown off and they suffer no penalty for it.

So that's a bug in the game that we can't fix, but rather, we ban all repeated proning? The lack of shotgun deviation shouldn't be a reason, though it is an unfortunate truth. Though as we all know, the game is full of bugs... but we still play it anyway.

Originally Posted by Crux

And I've yet to see a good refutation of the definition of bunnyflopping I provided earlier. All I get is "it is subjective". Anyone who has ever seen true bunnyflopping wouldn't consider it a gray area. It's really clear. And obvious.

So you don't think "Bunnyflopping is when a player uses prone repeatedly in quick succession as a means of avoiding fire when a lack of cover is available" is subjective?

Ok, someone does it twice in 5 seconds? 3 times in 6 seconds? 5 times in er... was that 5 seconds, or 6?

Assuming that everyone is going to define it exactly the same, from that, is entirely unlikely. And then an admin watches the BR when there is discrepancy, and makes his own oppinion. How on earth can the person doing the reporting, the person being reported, or any admins justify whichever view they take without some sort of time involved?

Originally Posted by Crux

And I'm beginning to wonder whether the people arguing so vehemently against a rule either just don't understand it or have a tendency to prone constantly themselves and want their actions to remand unhindered.

Originally Posted by Zoraster

Let's be clear here. This isn't yet a rule. So there should be no one claiming others are "just trying to defend their actions" or whatever. They haven't done anything against the rules yet, so there should be no one who acts like they've been breaking the rules all along.

The same actions that break no rules? If it isn't banned, it isn't considered a bad thing in general by TG. If it isn't a bad thing, then there is nothing wrong with anyone taking the oppinion that it shouldn't be banned. If it became banned, then it wouldn't be up for discussion any more. I don't see why you should think any less of their views than your own.

Besides, people are just saying it would be too hard to ban effectively, without causing problems.

**SilentSunshine** · 09-30-2009, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

Bunnyflopping is when a player uses prone repeatedly in quick succession as a means of avoiding fire when a lack of cover is available.

Exactly how much is repeatedly? How quick is "quick succession?" And, what may be the rigid definition of cover? Those three questions are the reason I personally feel the definition of bunnyflopping is subjective. Sure, everyone has a clear individual feeling for what they deem flopping to mean. Realistically, how could we get each admin to feel exactly the same way and communicate that definition to the players effectively?

Let's say we eliminate the most annoying use of proning: the extreme cases of "up/down, up/down, up/down." Where in Crux's definition can we be assured that those who go "up/down... up/down.... then, up/down" will be protected?

**spiff913** · 09-30-2009, 12:36 PM

It depends on what your definition of "is" is.

**Crux** · 09-30-2009, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by MrJengles

So that's a bug in the game that we can't fix, but rather, we ban all repeated proning?

Now you're just being contrary. It isn't a bug. A shotgun is by definition not a precision aiming weapon. Deviation is already built into each and every shot. Nobody is suggesting we ban proning. I was just pointing out yet more erroneous statements made by some of the people in this thread who seem more committed to arguing than to finding solutions.

The lack of shotgun deviation shouldn't be a reason, though it is an unfortunate truth. Though as we all know, the game is full of bugs... but we still play it anyway.

It isn't a reason. A reason is the fact bunnyflopping is completely unrealistic and breaks immersion. Realism and immersion are two things we strive for here at TG.

So you don't think "Bunnyflopping is when a player uses prone repeatedly in quick succession as a means of avoiding fire when a lack of cover is available" is subjective? Ok, someone does it twice in 5 seconds? 3 times in 6 seconds? 5 times in er... was that 5 seconds, or 6?

Have you ever actually seen bunnyflopping? Do you even understand what it looks like when someone goes prone every 1-2 seconds in-game while standing in open ground? Again, you're so busy being contrary you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Exactly how much is repeatedly? How quick is "quick succession?" And, what may be the rigid definition of cover? Those three questions are the reason I personally feel the definition of bunnyflopping is subjective. Sure, everyone has a clear individual feeling for what they deem flopping to mean. Realistically, how could we get each admin to feel exactly the same way and communicate that definition to the players effectively?

Shirley, you can't be serious.

**Aumen1** · 09-30-2009, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by LordKelvin

Actually, Aumen, most of the TG server rules are in place to foster teamwork and provide an enjoyable game experience for the greatest number of people. If there is an action that people are preforming that not only goes against the spirit of the Primer but also is a major annoyance and detracts from the game experience for a large number of people, then it is in fact extremely necessary to make a rule addressing it.

And bunnyflopping is obviously meeting the above criteria because if it was a minor passing annoyance there wouldn't be this huge debate about it nor hordes of people pressing for admin action against it.

I think I understand pretty darn well what the TG rules are in place for, thank you. I don't mean to be confrontational but - remember that it is your opinion; that bunnyflopping meets some sort of criteria and please remember I am very well entitled to mine own opinion.

My opinion; is that this action of bunnyflopping does not take away from the game all that much, the game is still enjoyable, this can allow for better teamwork by combating it, it does not happen frequently enough to warrant a rule and that if you keep making rules your going to ruin and loose a good game in bureaucracy.

**Aumen1** · 09-30-2009, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

Shirley, you can't be serious.

Why can't he be serious, is seemed perfectly reasonable question / comment to me and furthermore why belittle his comment.

**MrJengles** · 09-30-2009, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

Now you're just being contrary. It isn't a bug. A shotgun is by definition not a precision aiming weapon. Deviation is already built into each and every shot.

[...]

It isn't a reason

Ok, so it isn't a bug, no problem with the shotgun then.

Originally Posted by Crux

Nobody is suggesting we ban proning. I was just pointing out yet more erroneous statements made by some of the people in this thread who seem more committed to arguing than to finding solutions.

I said repeated proning actually. And perhaps those people have thought about it and can't think of any solutions... which is why they have a different oppinion! Or do you just assume that everyone with different oppinions to you don't think about it properly?

Originally Posted by Crux

A reason is the fact bunnyflopping is completely unrealistic and breaks immersion. Realism and immersion are two things we strive for here at TG.

As already said, if people want a game as close to real life as possible, they should buy games that started off closer. BF2142 is no where near realistic, with reviving, healing in seconds, instant driving, indestructable parachutes and a plethora of other examples.

If a rule can be made that makes the game more realistic WITHOUT being subjective, then it has my support. However, BF2142 will never be a truly realistic game... and for that reason, some things need to accepted.

Originally Posted by Crux

Have you ever actually seen bunnyflopping? Do you even understand what it looks like when someone goes prone every 1-2 seconds in-game while standing in open ground? Again, you're so busy being contrary you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Your cynicism is highly uncalled for, take it to another forum.

**Crux** · 09-30-2009, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by MrJengles

As already said, if people want a game as close to real life as possible, they should buy games that started off closer. BF2142 is no where near realistic, with reviving, healing in seconds, instant driving, indestructable parachutes and a plethora of other examples.

Honest question: have you ever fully and properly read the TG Primer?

If a rule can be made that makes the game more realistic WITHOUT being subjective, then it has my support. However, BF2142 will never be a truly realistic game... and for that reason, some things need to accepted.

Some things are accepted: reviving, healing in seconds, instant driving, indestructible parachutes and a plethora of other examples. Some things, such as bunnyhopping we make rules against.

Your cynicism is highly uncalled for.

Does that mean you won't answer the question? I was genuinely curious. I mean you're the one who is postulating that somehow an arbitrary distinction between 5 prones in 5 seconds vs 6 would somehow be important. Which tells me you either haven't actually seen people do continuous repeated proning, or you're just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

**MrJengles** · 09-30-2009, 01:17 PM

Alright then:

Originally Posted by Crux

Honest question: have you ever fully and properly read the TG Primer?

Yes. The primer does make games more realistic, but it would be rather impossible to make a game such as BF2142 as realistic as some others... ArmA perhaps?

Originally Posted by Crux

Some things are accepted: reviving, healing in seconds, instant driving, indestructible parachutes and a plethora of other examples. Some things, such as bunnyhopping we make rules against.

Yep, it is a great half way point between realism, and what was started off with. However, going further with such things as vague bunny flopping rules will most likely cause more problems than it solves.

Originally Posted by Crux

Does that mean you won't answer the question? I was genuinely curious. I mean you're the one who is postulating that somehow an arbitrary distinction between 5 prones in 5 seconds vs 6 would somehow be important. Which tells me you either haven't actually seen people do continuous repeated proning, or you're just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

First, the difference is so tiny - which just gets amplified if we scaled it down to a couple dives every second, being compared to a couple point five, or point two or something... then how on Earth is everyone meant to be united in where that line is?

And secondly, how would they even find that line since no one would use a timer...

**Superfast** · 09-30-2009, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Aumen1

My opinion; is that this action of bunnyflopping does not take away from the game all that much, the game is still enjoyable, this can allow for better teamwork by combating it, it does not happen frequently enough to warrant a rule and that if you keep making rules your going to ruin and loose a good game in bureaucracy.

Please tell me how we can get better teamwork out of more bunny-flopping.

It does not happen frequently enough NOW to warrant a rule, but if we say ok what would happen then?

My opinion is that bunny-flopping does not add anything extra to the game except annoyance.

We maybe don't need a specific rule for it but i'll bet that in other similar communities/clans it would fall under the general "play properly on our server rule".

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