a new trend? Bunny Flop - Page 4

**xDementiax** · 09-25-2009, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrJengles

Huh....

I am surprised by the majority view on this one. I personally agree with Sharingan:

This is a rather tricky subject. The game already has plenty of things in it that are entirely unrealistic, but are part of the gameplay. Being able to withstand so many bullets, for example, keeps you alive longer and able to fight longer; it's perfectly logical to have that setup in a game, to increase fun. At the same time, some elements are disliked because they are so unrealistic that opponents really do not enjoy facing them. For example RDX buggies, or even bunny hopping. The fact is, this line between realism and "part of the fun of the game" is not as simple as "this is realistic, but that isn't". If we wanted to play a game as close to realism as possible, we would play more simulation type games.

That being said, creating this imaginary line has worked wonders for TG. With hundreds of people complimenting the huge difference it makes and how much more FUN it is! Therefore, if this rule gets implemented then it is by the oppinion of TG admins that it creates a better balance between fun and realism, not just to eliminate everything that is even vaguely unrealistic.

As for me, I can quite easily find myself enjoying the challenge of hitting a player who is proning in a close quarters gunfight...it shakes things up a bit, without going into the whole jump-ety jump-ety thing. Jumping has a lot of motion and then the person ends up standing, while taking little penalty for said jump, and is easy to repeat. The very fine difference between "bunny hopping" and "bunny flopping" is that you end up on the ground when you dive...which reduces your dodging capability after said movement drastically. Yes, part of the flopping is then to get straight back up, but as someone else has already said, it takes more buttons to do that than jumping. This results in taking more time to perform a flop, than a hop. Both by user input time and 2 seperate animations. It also results in more of a penalty than a hop, because you cannot fire for a brief period during either of the 2 animatons, rather than the single hop.

Now these differences may be fractions of a second, but that is entirely enough to make the difference in a firefight, and there has obviously been a noticeable differance between the 2, at least up until now. So I'm just pointing that out to people.

Also, personally I don't see people prone spamming all over the place, usually it is just a couple or few times during a close quarters engagement against multiple people. In that situation, I've first hand noticed the disadvantage of throwing your own head at the opponent - which gets you headshotted a bunch of times - or being mown down while on the floor unable to dodge. I find it equally enjoyable to kill people that try it, as I do when I prone a couple times during a fight and manage to kill 2 or 3 people by myself if I'm lucky. IMO, I still find it fun... and I do not put it on par, in terms of advantages vs disadvantages, with bunny hopping. At distance or when running out in the open, bunny flopping really offers little help to repeat after the first dive, as it does nothing to avoid rockets and makes it take longer for you to reach that piece of cover, thereby meaning you get shot at for longer. Therefore, I really don't see this "long range avoidance" part as much of a problem, nor does it happen much at all in game.

Next, I would say that rules and their violations need to be as black and white as possible, for easy reporting, admining, and understanding by every player. Bunny hopping is very obvious: someone either jumps over an obstacle, or they jump without an obstacle involved. Flopping, on the otherhand, is very vague if the best definition is "prone spamming." By all means, throw in a time to make it more precise: "don't prone more than once every few seconds," but who on earth is going to time it? I think this rule would be impossible to make precise, and rules are too hard to enforce without that straightforward "yes - that is allowed, no - that isn't allowed" nature. Everyone that is part of TG is mature enough to understand where the line is, but as someone else said, I think it might be better off as more of a gentlemans agreement type of thing; for those that wish to accept it.

That being said, I would suggest perhaps a test run of this? Maybe a week or 2 to see what happens... Whether or not that happens I will certainly be adjusting my habbits for a while to remind myself of the difference it makes.

Well said.. but it opens the can of worms further in terms of the rules...
If I had a vote I'd say keep it simple .. too much is too much.. repeating an action to take advantage of the game, rather than the way it is suppose to be played makes the game less "real" and is considered an Exploit of the game and is wrong.
too much hitting the space bar (not the OMG I've been shot.. smack the space bar reactively accidentally )
too much prone flopping ( not diving once behind something to avoid fire )
too much dolphin diving (same)

but what about - a Grenade spamming rule? << this to me should be a rule limiting grenade spamming, it's fun but it's also ridiculous how many grenades a support guy can throw.

RDX on a buggy Rule I still have an issue with this rule because I still see nothing wrong with Jihading a buggy or ramming anything.. Walker v Walker butting heads in battle .. its' fun and very real.. but not Exploitive.

Deterhek · 09-25-2009, 01:13 AM

Actually when it comes to realism I also kind of question the "spawning in on the squad leader" aspect of the game lol.

**Reaperassault** · 09-25-2009, 01:34 AM

ugh, realism is for games that are supposed to be realistic and 2142 is in no way realistic, its not meant to be. TG operates inside the mechanics of each game here with emphasis on teamwork and maturity. A lot of the rules on the main server are there for fairness and balance which usually results in having fun. Game mechanics are a take it or leave it sort of thing, such as the spawning on SL. That alone facilitates teamwork to a much higher degree. As a counter example there is no spawning in except for at the main base in ARMA2 and in order to get respawned player back out to their squads they need someone to be a logistical officer, which doesn't sound like a way the general 2142 player wants to spend his gaming time. If you don't like the way the game works enough no one is keeping you here.

**JumpBackJack** · 09-25-2009, 02:00 AM

Would the way knifers run at you be considered "bunny running"?

Its a game and people are always going to try to avoid getting killed.
I wish I could revive people in real life.

Bunny hopping doesnt seem to do much good since you just wait for them land each time when you shoot.
You shoot em in the head when they flop.

I think its something people do when their inexperienced(bunny flopping vs Diving).
I personally dont care.
I'm still going to try to kill them.

And I will figure out a way to kill anything that hops, flops, runs or dives.... :-))

**BigMcLarge** · 09-25-2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deterhek

I'm just wondering, if you were a soldier IRL caught in the middle of a crossfire, enemies all around you, all shooting...
Would you just stand still and fire back?
NO! You'd be moving like h-e-double-hockey-sticks. Bunny-hopping is the act of jumping up and down over and over again, in real life you wouldn't do that because jumping to avoid fire really doesn't work too well (in-game it really isn't that useful for avoiding fire too) but trying to dodge bullets by rolling, crawling, dodging...that would be a good way to dodge bullets IMO.

Going prone, then crawling a little, popping up and running behind cover, going prone again, etc., are one thing and perfectly fine in my opinion.

Running along, and popping up and down constantly is something else entirely, and is exactly like bunnyhopping, again in my opinion. I don't like it, it's unrealistic, and it really, really takes away from the game for me. There are thousands of servers I could be playing on if I want to watch players sliding across the map on their bellys like snakes, or hopping all over the screen like jack rabbits. But I don't want to see those things, so I play at TG, where I have come to expect a MUCH higher standard of play.

FL1Pmode · 09-25-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaperassault

ugh, realism is for games that are supposed to be realistic and 2142 is in no way realistic, its not meant to be. Tg operates inside the mechanics of each game here with emphasis on teamwork and maturity. A lot of the rules on the main server are there for fairness and balance which usually results in having fun. Game mechanics are a take it or leave it sort of thing, such as the spawning on sl. That alone facilitates teamwork to a much higher degree. As a counter example there is no spawning in except for at the main base in arma2 and in order to get respawned player back out to their squads they need someone to be a logistical officer, which doesn't sound like a way the general 2142 player wants to spend his gaming time. If you don't like the way the game works enough no one is keeping you here.

qft

-Str!ker- · 09-25-2009, 01:01 PM

We should keep an eye on this, things like this ruin the game for me. There is no game where a strategy like this is used, for me this is worse then bunny hopping.

**IOWarrior** · 09-25-2009, 01:17 PM

How is this not Tactical or "realistic"? If this is considered not "realistic" then someone needs to contact Army Publications and tell them that their field manuals are wrong.

I understand dolphin diving or jumping and 'gliding' around a corner but not the rushing, going prone, rushing and going prone by cover.

Army FM 3-21.8 - The Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad states under Chapter 1-47

1-47. Tactical movement is inherent in all Infantry operations. Movement is multifaceted, ranging from
dismounted, to mounted, to aerial modes, and is conducted in varying physical environments, including the
urban environment. For the individual, movement is comprised of the individual movement techniques
(IMT) of high crawl, low crawl, and 3-5 second rush; for the unit it is comprised of movement formations,
movement techniques, and maneuver (fire and movement). Mastering the many aspects of tactical
movement is fundamental. More importantly, Infantrymen must be thoroughly trained in the critical
transition from tactical movement to maneuver.

Army FM 21-75 - Combat Skills of the Soldier under Chapter 3 Movement

The rush is the fastest way to move from one position to another. Each rush should last from 3 to 5 seconds. The rushes are kept short to keep enemy machine gunners or riflemen from tracking you. However, do not stop and hit the ground in the open just because 5 seconds have passed. Always try to hit the ground behind some cover. Before moving, pick out your next covered and concealed position and the best route to it.

Make your move from the prone position as follows:

■Slowly raise your head and pick your next position and the route to it. TechwarEdit: Crouch
■Slowly lower your head. TechwarEdit: Prone
■Draw your arms into your body (keeping your elbows in).
■Pull your right leg forward.
■Raise your body by straightening your arms.
■Get up quickly.
■Run to the next position

**Lyramion** · 09-25-2009, 01:26 PM

You clearly never saw people do bunnyflopping properly

**oniell121** · 09-25-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IOWarrior

I understand dolphin diving or jumping and 'gliding' around a corner but not the rushing, going prone, rushing and going prone by cover.

I don't think anyone here thinks that going prone, getting up, running to cover, then going prone behind it is wrong. It's not what we're discussing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorax74

What exactly is a bunny flop you might ask? Well, I see it as the inverse of the bunny hop, or simply put, diving to the ground repeatedly to avoid getting shot.

OK, now some people are going to read that as "what, you have a problem with me going prone to engage?!?!" That is not what I'm saying, and quite honestly, that's a topic worthy of its own discussion. What I am saying is that I find it highly disturbing to see people running away from engagements (or towards them) and constantly going prone as they run. Some people toss in a jump and go prone in the air allowing them to land in the prone position.

As was stated, the way I understand it is that we're talking about the repeated act of going prone while running away and not behind cover. And doing it well more than once. That's what I understand we're talking about. If that is indeed the case, then the Army FM agrees with us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IOWarrior

However, do not stop and hit the ground in the open just because 5 seconds have passed. Always try to hit the ground behind some cover.

**Eroak** · 09-25-2009, 02:04 PM

Behind cover: this is fine and we never intended to regulate any movements getting into or while in cover.

MrJengles · 09-25-2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oniell121

As was stated, the way I understand it is that we're talking about the repeated act of going prone while running away and not behind cover. And doing it well more than once. That's what I understand we're talking about.

So, it seems people are directing their attention to this "running along and then going prone repeatedly" aspect... is that all? I would've thought if people disliked it, they'd certainly have a say about doing it in close quarters.

As I've said, bunny hopping kind of helps because during the entire animation, you're still moving forwards and covering ground, but in an unexpected direction. Whereas for bunny flopping you just drop straight down, which at range makes you take longer to get where you are going, and in close engagements, makes you a lot slower in trying to circle an opponent or actually get anywhere.

The point is, if you're not in cover when you do it, then the opponent has longer to shoot you before you reach cover. Is that really bothersome? And if you are in cover... well no one has any problems with that.

Besides, I don't see people bunny flop out in the open anywhere near as much as people on other servers will bunny hop out in the open. Which suggests it really isn't overly helpful. Personally, I take notice of how much people put emphasis on sprinting everywhere as fast as possible; hence most using light armor. Bunny flopping slows you down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarrytBaptist

Very well written! (-:

However you missed one tiny detail, it takes only one key. I noticed that some people use macros/bind their keys. What may seem like a mundane task of pressing 3 keys to do a full cycle, requires binding one key to do it for you. The same goes for single RDX which some people still practice on the server.

Thank you.

Though it does take more than one button press if you intend to be standing afterwards (see my previous post). You either hit Z then space, or Z twice. Or it takes three if you throw in a crouch aswell.

As to macros, well, I have no idea how to spot that sort of thing and recognise that that person isn't just quick on the keyboard... so perhaps I am mislead, but I wouldn't have guessed anyone at TG uses them, and nor have I encountered anyone else on the server I would say was.

But that is really beside the point, you shouldn't punish the majority for what the minority do. That is why we have rules to kick the minority. I highly dislike the idea of utterly banning something because some people might be using macros with it. It doesn't have any weight on the issue. RDX hopping isn't allowed, but that's because no one likes it whether a macro was used or not. So the question about bunny flopping, likewise, doesn't involve macros.

SharinganTH1422 · 09-25-2009, 03:56 PM

How helpful the actual movement is - that's debatable. However a big problem is how it screws with hitboxes, and therefore it's almost a form of glitching.

**BigMcLarge** · 09-25-2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrJengles

So, it seems people are directing their attention to this "running along and then going prone repeatedly" aspect... is that all? I would've thought if people disliked it, they'd certainly have a say about doing it in close quarters.

For me, it's not a matter of whether they are at range, or in close quarters, it's annoying and it's glitchy. I've seen people doing it to counter me at 40 meters, and I've come right upon someone around a corner and had them instantly start circling me, popping up and down non-stop to the point that I can't even keep track of where they are in relationship to me and I die miserably.

**Zhohar** · 09-25-2009, 04:33 PM

Can someone explain this idea in depth? How exactly does it work?

And if it *IS* a glitch, is it 100% reproducible? How reproducible is it?

More importantly, can anyone reasonably distinguish it from lag: network lag, or client/server hardware lag?

What’s the best method to detect it? Detection indicators for ARs?

Let's get as technical as we need to be.
Because it seems like we're throwing this term out willy-nilly in our discussions; that anything other than simple walking in a straight line is hitbox glitching. Since our primer strongly defines "game engine exploits" -- let's put it clearly.

How exactly does this exploit work, how is it triggered, can it be observed, how can it be best reproduced? What actions produce a hitbox glitch, how reliable are each of them?

Have we ever attempted to actually get this down to facts? Do admins want to chime in? What kind of actions glitch a hitbox? How sure are we of this?

And if technical isn’t what we can be, then let’s get as close as we can. Let’s attempt to be constructive about this instead of throwing out “anything but marching is a hitbox glitch.”

Let’s leave the "win at any cost vs. TG mindset" and “realism vs. simulation” discussions out of this – there’s other threads for that. This one is about the facts and as close as we can get to them.