a new trend? Bunny Flop

**Lorax74** · 09-24-2009, 12:13 AM

So I'm going to do something different for a change, I'm going to post my thoughts and ask for a constructive discussion on what I perceive to be a growing trend that disturbs me. I'll get to the actual trend shortly.

The rules to participate in this discussion, and they are very simple:

* Rule 1: Do not turn this into a flame war.
* Rule 2: Keep to the topic at hand. If the discussion ebbs and flows around key points, fine, let it, but do not purposefully derail the discussion
* Rule 3: See rule 1.

Breaking the rules will most likely result in the post getting moderated. *Gasp*

Now the trend, and I'm going to credit Spiff with naming it, is the "bunny flop." What exactly is a bunny flop you might ask? Well, I see it as the inverse of the bunny hop, or simply put, diving to the ground repeatedly to avoid getting shot.

OK, now some people are going to read that as "what, you have a problem with me going prone to engage?!?!" That is not what I'm saying, and quite honestly, that's a topic worthy of its own discussion. What I am saying is that I find it highly disturbing to see people running away from engagements (or towards them) and constantly going prone as they run. Some people toss in a jump and go prone in the air allowing them to land in the prone position.

I've even seen people jump to prone around corners anticipating gunfire. TG does not allow people to hop around a corner to avoid gunfire, why is this action different? Read what I said, I did not say people crawl around corners in the prone position, they're jumping around corners and going prone.

Then there are the people that use the prone key in close quarters, constantly going up and down as they dance around squads of infantry. How can you tell me that is any way realistic? Most often this is done by someone wielding a shotgun (no hit deviation penalty when going prone).

So I'll open it up to everyone to give their thoughts and opinions on this. And one last thing, this trend has been KILLING the game for me. It's like bunny hopping, sure you can adjust and kill the hoppers, but it ruins the immersion for me.

**Zoraster** · 09-24-2009, 12:24 AM

I agree in that I think there's little difference between a true bunny flopper so to speak and a bunny hopper. The difficulty is that it's a lot harder to tell when someone else is bunny flopping whereas it's fairly easy (my recent false report aside) to tell if someone is jumping to bunny hop or jumping to do other things (get over objects, throw nades, etc.)

For example, if I run across the road going from statue to Playground and I get hit by a bullet, I may well hit the ground, pop up really fast and start running again. But that's not all that different from what I might do in real life. I'd hit the ground to avoid the immediate bead on me and then run because they're about to shoot me again. But put that into close quarters combat or if I were to do that repeatedly as I crossed, and I'm probably not doing something realistic.

I guess from my point of view, realism isn't the objectionable part of bunny hopping or flopping, though it's the most easily articulated. It's that it takes the game and makes it more gimmicky and glitchy. That's somewhat related to realism, but isn't the same thing. Either way, it reduces the general enjoyment in our community.

**oniell121** · 09-24-2009, 12:24 AM

I agree.

(The following thoughts are based in the definition of bunny-flopping that lorax gave. Not just going prone once)
It seems to me that this would be no different than bunny-hopping. As you say, it is no way realistic and I would think that the idea and spirit of the bunny-hopping rule would apply to this as well. It's one of those things that you could not do in real life; not that fast anyway. Up and down from crouching I can see, but not prone. This seems to me like one of those cases where we must look at the original intent of the rule. Is the bunny hopping rule there to simple prevent only bunny-hopping? Or is the intent to disallow such motion and actions that a real person could not do? The TG primer says:

Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine, regardless of the level of advantage, if any, it gives over the opposing team.

Is a bunny-floping(I really like that term lorax) playing "in a near-simulation environment" or is it "leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game"? I personally see it as the latter.

I am interested in others thoughts.

**Sluggo78** · 09-24-2009, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Zoraster

I agree in that I think there's little difference between a true bunny flopper so to speak and a bunny hopper. The difficulty is that it's a lot harder to tell when someone else is bunny flopping whereas it's fairly easy (my recent false report aside) to tell if someone is jumping to bunny hop or jumping to do other things (get over objects, throw nades, etc.)

For example, if I run across the road going from statue to Playground and I get hit by a bullet, I may well hit the ground, pop up really fast and start running again. But that's not all that different from what I might do in real life. I'd hit the ground to avoid the immediate bead on me and then run because they're about to shoot me again. But put that into close quarters combat or if I were to do that repeatedly as I crossed, and I'm probably not doing something realistic.

I agree with Zoraster on that one, its just when and where you do it. Running across the road and you are being shot at, i would hit the floor. Then quickly get up and run to the safest spot.

**Fruvous** · 09-24-2009, 12:42 AM

I consider the "dive around the corner" as the alternative to the lean which is absent from 2142.

If someone is approaching from along side a large metal container and is completely exposed. Do you:
a) Stick your full body out, which is essentially putting you at the disadvantage for sticking your body out.
b) Spray the vulnerable victim while staying safe (ideally a lean, or blind fire. But neither are present).

I can see where people would object to this..
if it becomes articulated that it's disallowed, I'd stop no questions asked.

I don't object to a dive if they stay down for 1-2 seconds. It creates the realism that, yes it's a bad idea to dive and you would never realistically do it when exposed (unless if diving actually gave you adequate cover because you're on a hill).

If they prone, and immediately stnad up, then it's a bunny flop.

edit: Now taht I think of it, I don't really use it at that much anyways.

**BeSiege82** · 09-24-2009, 12:46 AM

Please tell me what the difference is between dolphin diving and bunny flops. I see little difference between the two and I get mad when people do this kind of stuff, but I would like to know what the difference between the two are.

**Fruvous** · 09-24-2009, 12:50 AM

As I understand it:
Dolphin dive: Jump + Prone. Optional running.
Bunny flop: Prone + Unprone.

**Sluggo78** · 09-24-2009, 12:54 AM

dolphin diving is mainly used with knifing servers. You run, hoping to trick the enemy of going for the center mass shot, but then just proning and then hitting them. Bunny flop is also used in that situation but to make it harder for anybody to even touch you. Like i said though, it really depends on how you use it and where/when you use it.

And if you see somebody dolphin dive... tell them this

"Save your tricks for the aquarium you DOLPHIN!"

**Mercenary90** · 09-24-2009, 12:56 AM

Is it me, or do the hitboxes weird out when doing prones and getting up? With prones, the hitboxes seem to immediately move to the ground where the proner is diving towards, while the hitboxes for people getting up seem to be higher than the model appears.

**BeSiege82** · 09-24-2009, 04:37 AM

I still see little difference between the two because I still have the guys hitting me while hitting the ground running. I hate seeing the notice of death while the enemy's voss is still pointed at a building next to him.

I completely understand the logic of hitting the ground when you need to find cover and when you want to attack and not be seen by the enemy, but when it is done in a face to face battle, I feel like they are just cowards. It is bothersome, but how can it be managed without proper representation?

**BarrytBaptist** · 09-24-2009, 04:44 AM

I love this one "Then there are the people that use the prone key in close quarters, constantly going up and down as they dance around squads of infantry."

I cannot stop laughing.

I do not see anything wrong with it... However, some people tend to jump and go into prone = do not like this one.

Also, there are a lot of breakheads on the server... (-; It means you snipe them while they go into prone.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-oAqhD9EGY[/media]

You do not have to do it and be a sitting duck for a sniper

**SharinganTH1422** · 09-24-2009, 09:04 AM

"Striving for realism" is a cool idea, but this isn't a simulation game. I think there needs to be a line drawn somewhere about how far we go down the "simulation" route. I've always been a little unsure about it, but never really expressed it, because that's the community and I'm not here to change it. BUT, are we then going to start saying we can't jump to throw grenades further because it's not "realistic", or what about some of the other crazy stuff we do that are based on the limitations and rules of the world that the game provides us with - should these be banned too? I really do understand where the whole simulation thing comes from, but in a world with different rules from the real world, I think things have to be a little different.

On the same line of thought, does the "bunny-flop" annoy you because you think it's not "simulation-y" or is it because it's annoying as hell. I don't really hear anyone complaining when a defibrillator to the head brings someone back to full health after they've been hit by some RDX

. I'm not saying it shouldn't be removed, because it displays similar ass-hatery to bunny-hopping, but perhaps we should find the correct justification for it, as opposed to just "bah, it's not like it is in real life."

**SilentSunshine** · 09-24-2009, 09:21 AM

Having played baseball/softball, a sport in which you do dive to avoid fire (albeit a different kind) I may be biased. I so enjoyed sliding myself and tagging out those who were poor sliders. Not that we're all going to physically try it out with shotguns, but it could be done, and better by those who practice. Is it realistic that you can run like the wind with 1% of your health? No way. Should we decide to not exploit that aspect of the game and not run whilst extremely low on health? Sure it annoys me when someone does that around me and gets the kills on me repeatedly, but I actually enjoy different player movement tactics for they force me to at least attempt to hone in my own skills, of whatever form I choose to adopt. I can only foresee this being a gentleman's agreement type of suggestion. Enforcing a "don't go prone & get up again a lot" rule would seem an insurmountable task.

**Lorax74** · 09-24-2009, 09:36 AM

I don't like it because it's annoying as hell and it's glitchy, just like bunny hopping. When I say it isn't very realistic, that's really an afterthought.

**xDementiax** · 09-24-2009, 09:36 AM

It takes alot more action on the keyboard to dolphin or flop repeatedly. Bunny hopping is just hitting the space bar a bunch of times.
If you dive, dolphin or flop from fire once I think it's acceptable, same if you were to hop over a railing while Running and avoiding gunfire. (not just jumping in place)
Repeating either of these actions are against the rules with regard to trying to keep the game as close to real life fighting.

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