The APC Squad - Page 2

**Lorax74** · 12-18-2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasta-GR

If the APC is destroyed (SL dies), what the rest of the squad should do if alive?

1) Stay where they are at the moment and fight, waiting for the APC?
2) Retreat to a safe position and wait for the APC?

Trick question, you forgot to include the correct answer in the list:
3) You should do whatever your SL tells you to do and not decide for yourself.

I'm going to pretend that I didn't read the comment about top score...

**MDFubar** · 12-18-2007, 12:35 PM

Thought I covered the SL instruction.....

**Lorax74** · 12-18-2007, 12:37 PM

Sorry, I missed that post.

**daithi1** · 12-18-2007, 03:40 PM

What's going on here?

Why not one support, one medic driving and mortaring and 4 engys? When no armour is a around mortar and 4 gunner slots should keep infantry at bay. If armour shows up, emp, engys jump out, all shoot. This will take almost everything down if it's still up ram and it will go down. If repairs are needed APC retreats, if that isn't an option 3 engys jump out with medic (support is SL) and repair and revive if needed.

Also as a backup plan 4-5 SM pod out onto vehicle (or infantry) and a pilum or two and it's down.

I know this idea is mostly the same as everyone else's but being profound is fun.

**Lorax74** · 12-18-2007, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daithi1

...This will take almost everything down if it's still up ram and it will go down. If repairs are needed APC retreats, if that isn't an option 3 engys jump out with medic (support is SL) and repair and revive if needed...

There is to be NO RAMMING of any kind on our server, that is considered a suicide tactic and will get you kicked and/or banned. Please go back and reread the server rules and guidelines again.

**MDFubar** · 12-18-2007, 03:56 PM

My post was meant as engaging head to head, not to mean ramming.

**Rasta-GR** · 12-18-2007, 04:32 PM

Hey MDFubar,

Lorax suggestion was not for you

Lorax, I was asking these 2 questions as a SL.
Of course I know about your 3rd option...

Did you say top score? No, I rammed my APC and TK everyone, so I have a negative top score now, what a shame...

SharinganTH1422 · 12-18-2007, 06:37 PM

By top score I meant that if you are in a squad with mainly pubbies, and are not familiar with any of them, and because you are too far to make a decision on what the rest of the squad should do, you put someone else in charge, and who better than the top the scorer in your squad? I wouldn't think it would be the bottom one. If you were following SOPs, you could give a sitrep on what's happening, but after your APC has gone up in smoke, and there are 4 or 5 enemies next to it, you tend to attract attention, and you don't usually have the time to do this. It's a decision that needs to be made quickly, by someone that is in the thick of the situation, and by who you think is best for the job. If you had nothing else to go by, I think the scores of your squaddies would be the best source of judgement. (Of course, if there was something like a player that had communicated with you well for the match and had shown initiative and a knowledge of the game mechanics, but was not top of your squad in terms of points, that person would be better suited for the job.)

Does anyone have any further criticisms of this system? Because I would like to discuss this, and see the other side of the argument.

Edit: Well Rasta, if you rammed the APC, then you would be the driver, aka the SL, so you would not be one of the people involved in the system.

**MDFubar** · 12-18-2007, 07:38 PM

I am not sure that the top scoring person is always the best person to lead. As an Sl, I rarely,m if ever, have the top score in my squad. I wouldn't put anyone in charge, just inform them of what I want them to do. Top score usually means the best killer, not always the best leader.

SharinganTH1422 · 12-18-2007, 07:55 PM

Agreed Fubar, but when you do want someone to lead, score is a reference point, and if you have no other, then it should be used. Obviously, if you kbow the people to squad or are working well with one of the pubbies who has shown leadership skills, then yes, let them lead, but if you need to make a quick decision and don't know the players well, this will probably be the best way.

P.S. Sorry for not making this clear in the first place, I didn't mean that you should judge a player by their score, but if you have no other reference point, this is the best you can probably do. (Also, overall score includes teamwork score, the person that shows the best overall understanding of game mechanics, and best skill, will probably be at the top, or will be second or third, losing out to one or two people that may be having a good round, but even then, they are having a good round, which means they are not bad players at the moment. All you need from them is to make an on the spot judgement call, whether they think they should advance or retreat. If they advance, the SL makes his way to the flag, if they retreat, the SL sets up a rendezvous point)

**Lorax74** · 12-18-2007, 08:10 PM

On some maps, a support with an ammo crate in hand will have the top "score", in others it might be the gunner in an APC, and still others it may be the medic who is keeping everyone alive and well. Still, it does not matter, you have a squad leader who is respawing, not gone forever so your squad is not headless.

It always comes down to the squad leader, if the squad leader decides you should stay then dig in and stay. You don't need someone else to echo that order or tell you how to dig in. If the SL orders you to fall back, retreat, relocate, etc, then you do that. If the SL orders the squad to split into two seperate fireteams each with its own objective, then you do that too.

Simply put: the role of the SL is to think for the SM. The role of the SMs is to do what the SL thinks. I think you are making this much more complicated than it really has to be.

SharinganTH1422 · 12-18-2007, 08:44 PM

Well Lorax, you are right, but the original question referred to what should the squad do is the SL was killed, but if the rest of the squad was alive. If I'm not mistaken (which I usually am, so tell me if this is one of those times) you are talking about the general functions of a SL and his SMs. I think (and again, correct me if I'm wrong) the question is about what should a squad do when the SL dies, and in my opinion, the SL is unfit to decide then, because he/she does not have the necessary information on what the field is like, during that moment in time. So in this situation, I, as the SL, would probably say to someone else in my squad, or perhaps just everyone in the squad "I'm down, and I don't know what the current situation is, do you think you can push up and get the flag or do you think we should retreat? This should be an autocratic decision, you don't want 5 voices giving an opinion, and the SL, who is meant to have that position is down. So you hand the decision over to someone else. If you are not sure who to pick as you do not know who they are, just pick the person with the highest score, because chances are, the person will know at least enough to make this basic decision.

Like you said, it's not a big issue/decision, so just let someone else in a slightly better position make it. And no matter what you are doing, healing, resupplying, firing mortars, if you have the highest score in the squad, you probably have sufficient knowledge to judge what to do. Are there too many enemies to overcome or not? It's a simple yes or no question that only needs a fairly basic knowledge of the game to answer. The top scorer may not be the most experienced, but it makes more sense to put the guy that's top in charge of this decision, as opposed to the guy that's second or third if you don't know who to pick.

And again, just re-iterating the fact that if you know the people in the squad and you are not in a pubbie squad, or if a pubbie is showing good initiative and knowledge, then this obviously overrides the score system.

**Tarenth** · 12-18-2007, 09:49 PM

A bit off topic: On a NS map I once sat in place and EMP locked a full Goliath from the top of building. The goliath was fully loaded and had all its repair plates. I ended that round with 120 teamwork points in addition to my kills and other stuff to get the high score.

Does that make me the best SL ever? ^_^

Score means nothing. Its numbers on a board that change depending on where and when you stand at any given moment. Results mean everything.

Out of curiosity, how does pod crashing fit in with the 'no ramming' rule? When I'm an engineer against an enemy walker I usually pod out and land on its head as it is EMPed so I can jump down and get a vent shot. I know the pod does some decent damage when it hits armor because I've taken out APCs the same way by podding on top of them and then slapping a pilum round right between my bootstraps.

**Rasta-GR** · 12-19-2007, 05:48 AM

Hello again,

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharinganTH1422

[...] Well Rasta, if you rammed the APC, then you would be the driver, aka the SL, so you would not be one of the people involved in the system.

This is not for me. Maybe it's my bad humor

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharinganTH1422

[...] (Also, overall score includes teamwork score, the person that shows the best overall understanding of game mechanics, and best skill, will probably be at the top, or will be second or third, losing out to one or two people that may be having a good round, but even then, they are having a good round, which means they are not bad players at the moment.

Please read this book: "Software vs Human Perception"

Don't let score and points overtake your judgement...

You could give individual orders like "Bob, go there and take the Tank" or "Squad, retreat to this position", or "George, put some mines there, guys please cover him", etc.

But there is no point for the SL to delegate authority to a single SM. You are leading a unit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharinganTH1422

... you don't want 5 voices giving an opinion.

This is a team game. You have a squad. It's one unit.

When I play as a SM or SL, I often hear my squadmates talking on the comm channel about where to move, how to approach a enemy porition or suggesting a tactical movement towards a position.
As an SL, I allways listen to them, and some times I ask for suggestions. It's up to the SL to take the final decision and give orders.

To clarify my question :

What order(s) the SL shoud give to the squad, if she/he is killed and the APC gone? (assuming the SL is the driver)

SharinganTH1422 · 12-19-2007, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarenth

A bit off topic: On a NS map I once sat in place and EMP locked a full Goliath from the top of building. The goliath was fully loaded and had all its repair plates. I ended that round with 120 teamwork points in addition to my kills and other stuff to get the high score.

Does that make me the best SL ever? ^_^

Fully understood. But :

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharinganTH1422

it's not a big issue/decision, so just let someone else in a slightly better position make it. And no matter what you are doing, healing, resupplying, firing mortars, if you have the highest score in the squad, you probably have sufficient knowledge to judge what to do. Are there too many enemies to overcome or not? It's a simple yes or no question that only needs a fairly basic knowledge of the game to answer. The top scorer may not be the most experienced, but it makes more sense to put the guy that's top in charge of this decision, as opposed to the guy that's second or third if you don't know who to pick.

And again, just re-iterating the fact that if you know the people in the squad and you are not in a pubbie squad, or if a pubbie is showing good initiative and knowledge, then this obviously overrides the score system.

I'm not saying make the person with the highest score the SL for the round. I'm just saying let them make this one decision. They are in the field and can judge better than you as you are dead, and I can't think of anyone else that can make this decision instead. And also, like I said, IF YOU DO KNOW THE PEOPLE IN YOUR SQUAD, then you can make a judgement. E.g. I'm on a server with a couple of TG tagged guys I know as being good soldiers, Damonte, and a pubbie or two. If I went down, but Damonte was not top, one of the pubbies were, then I would ask Damonte, as I know of him as a good SL and more than capable of making this snapshot decision, and if I'm down, I don't know what's going on, I couldn't say what we should do. E.g. we were taken out by a lone engy and a couple of assaults and a support are with the engy, and they alone are defending the flag and are not far away. If I'm down I can not see what is going on, so I ask someone who is better placed to make the decision. I would usually be tempted to do just ask them to retreat to save ticket bleed, but there is a chance here, and I can't see it. So I will ask someone else to decide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasta-GR

Hello again,

Please read this book: "Software vs Human Perception"

Don't let score and points overtake your judgement...

I never have and never will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasta-GR

You could give individual orders like "Bob, go there and take the Tank" or "Squad, retreat to this position", or "George, put some mines there, guys please cover him", etc.

But there is no point for the SL to delegate authority to a single SM. You are leading a unit.

Again, you are talking of the basic functions of an SL (I think), I'm talking about asking someone who is better placed in the field to make a basic decision. It's not delegating complete authority, just asking someone to make a judgement call, on something that is impossible for you to judge (unless you want a sitrep, by which time a decision should already have been made, or your squad is dead)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasta-GR

This is a team game. You have a squad. It's one unit.

When I play as a SM or SL, I often hear my squadmates talking on the comm channel about where to move, how to approach a enemy porition or suggesting a tactical movement towards a position.
As an SL, I allways listen to them, and some times I ask for suggestions. It's up to the SL to take the final decision and give orders.

Lol, you are again talking of an SL general. Of course it's a team game, it's why I play it, and it's why I'm proud member of TG. I'm just saying, there's a reason why there is an SL, and why there is not a democratic voting system on every decision made. Sometimes the SL has to take a decisive action, an on-the-spot judgement call, because there isn't any time to ask and find out a general consensus of what to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorax74

Simply put: the role of the SL is to think for the SM. The role of the SMs is to do what the SL thinks.

If the SL thinks he can not make a decision, he should give an SM, and the one that he/she thinks is the most capable SM, the responsibility of a small decision.

12-18-2007, 12:35 PM	#17 (permalink)
MDFubar Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Castle, DE Age: 41 Posts: 1,969	Re: The APC Squad Thought I covered the SL instruction..... __________________ \|TG-Irr\| MDFubar "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - General George Patton Jr Acknowledge your teammates' Outstanding and Distinguished efforts: Submit a nomination NEW TO TG START HERE SUPPORTING MEMBERSHIP ADMIN LIST JOIN THE IRREGULARS**

12-18-2007, 12:37 PM	#18 (permalink)
Lorax74 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Bridgewater, NJ Age: 34 Posts: 6,912	Re: The APC Squad Sorry, I missed that post. __________________ TG-9th Lorax74

12-18-2007, 03:40 PM	#19 (permalink)
daithi1 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 1,208	Re: The APC Squad What's going on here? Why not one support, one medic driving and mortaring and 4 engys? When no armour is a around mortar and 4 gunner slots should keep infantry at bay. If armour shows up, emp, engys jump out, all shoot. This will take almost everything down if it's still up ram and it will go down. If repairs are needed APC retreats, if that isn't an option 3 engys jump out with medic (support is SL) and repair and revive if needed. Also as a backup plan 4-5 SM pod out onto vehicle (or infantry) and a pilum or two and it's down. I know this idea is mostly the same as everyone else's but being profound is fun. __________________ \|TG-AIR\| daithi1 Proud to have been an IRRegular! * 11th Air Tactical WikiMake Somebody Warm and Fuzzy, Ribbon NominationLost? Try TG Mentoring*

12-18-2007, 03:56 PM	#21 (permalink)
MDFubar Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Castle, DE Age: 41 Posts: 1,969	Re: The APC Squad My post was meant as engaging head to head, not to mean ramming. __________________ \|TG-Irr\| MDFubar "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - General George Patton Jr Acknowledge your teammates' Outstanding and Distinguished efforts: Submit a nomination NEW TO TG START HERE SUPPORTING MEMBERSHIP ADMIN LIST JOIN THE IRREGULARS**

12-18-2007, 04:32 PM	#22 (permalink)
Rasta-GR Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: RastaLand Age: 41 Posts: 598	Re: The APC Squad Hey MDFubar, Lorax suggestion was not for you Lorax, I was asking these 2 questions as a SL. Of course I know about your 3rd option... Did you say top score? No, I rammed my APC and TK everyone, so I have a negative top score now, what a shame... __________________ TG-E1st TacticalGamer European Division \| Team up with us today! New to TG? - TG Primer - BF2142 Rules - TG University - TeamSpeak Report Infractions - Contact a game Admin - Submit a nomination for an award "All wars are fought for money" (Socrates, 470-399 BC) "Only the dead have seen the end of the war" (Plato, 427-347 BC) "We make war that we may live in peace" (Aristotle, 384-322 BC) Last edited by Rasta-GR; 12-18-2007 at 04:50 PM. Reason: spelling

12-18-2007, 06:37 PM	#23 (permalink)
SharinganTH1422 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: East London, England, UK Age: 19 Posts: 1,531	Re: The APC Squad By top score I meant that if you are in a squad with mainly pubbies, and are not familiar with any of them, and because you are too far to make a decision on what the rest of the squad should do, you put someone else in charge, and who better than the top the scorer in your squad? I wouldn't think it would be the bottom one. If you were following SOPs, you could give a sitrep on what's happening, but after your APC has gone up in smoke, and there are 4 or 5 enemies next to it, you tend to attract attention, and you don't usually have the time to do this. It's a decision that needs to be made quickly, by someone that is in the thick of the situation, and by who you think is best for the job. If you had nothing else to go by, I think the scores of your squaddies would be the best source of judgement. (Of course, if there was something like a player that had communicated with you well for the match and had shown initiative and a knowledge of the game mechanics, but was not top of your squad in terms of points, that person would be better suited for the job.) Does anyone have any further criticisms of this system? Because I would like to discuss this, and see the other side of the argument. Edit: Well Rasta, if you rammed the APC, then you would be the driver, aka the SL, so you would not be one of the people involved in the system. __________________ Anger is a gift - Malcolm X ...If you can dream--and not make dreams your master, If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same...

12-18-2007, 07:38 PM	#24 (permalink)
MDFubar Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Castle, DE Age: 41 Posts: 1,969	Re: The APC Squad I am not sure that the top scoring person is always the best person to lead. As an Sl, I rarely,m if ever, have the top score in my squad. I wouldn't put anyone in charge, just inform them of what I want them to do. Top score usually means the best killer, not always the best leader. __________________ \|TG-Irr\| MDFubar "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - General George Patton Jr Acknowledge your teammates' Outstanding and Distinguished efforts: Submit a nomination NEW TO TG START HERE SUPPORTING MEMBERSHIP ADMIN LIST JOIN THE IRREGULARS**

12-18-2007, 07:55 PM	#25 (permalink)
SharinganTH1422 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: East London, England, UK Age: 19 Posts: 1,531	Re: The APC Squad Agreed Fubar, but when you do want someone to lead, score is a reference point, and if you have no other, then it should be used. Obviously, if you kbow the people to squad or are working well with one of the pubbies who has shown leadership skills, then yes, let them lead, but if you need to make a quick decision and don't know the players well, this will probably be the best way. P.S. Sorry for not making this clear in the first place, I didn't mean that you should judge a player by their score, but if you have no other reference point, this is the best you can probably do. (Also, overall score includes teamwork score, the person that shows the best overall understanding of game mechanics, and best skill, will probably be at the top, or will be second or third, losing out to one or two people that may be having a good round, but even then, they are having a good round, which means they are not bad players at the moment. All you need from them is to make an on the spot judgement call, whether they think they should advance or retreat. If they advance, the SL makes his way to the flag, if they retreat, the SL sets up a rendezvous point) __________________ Anger is a gift - Malcolm X ...If you can dream--and not make dreams your master, If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same...

12-18-2007, 08:10 PM	#26 (permalink)
Lorax74 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Bridgewater, NJ Age: 34 Posts: 6,912	Re: The APC Squad On some maps, a support with an ammo crate in hand will have the top "score", in others it might be the gunner in an APC, and still others it may be the medic who is keeping everyone alive and well. Still, it does not matter, you have a squad leader who is respawing, not gone forever so your squad is not headless. It always comes down to the squad leader, if the squad leader decides you should stay then dig in and stay. You don't need someone else to echo that order or tell you how to dig in. If the SL orders you to fall back, retreat, relocate, etc, then you do that. If the SL orders the squad to split into two seperate fireteams each with its own objective, then you do that too. Simply put: the role of the SL is to think for the SM. The role of the SMs is to do what the SL thinks. I think you are making this much more complicated than it really has to be. __________________ TG-9th Lorax74

12-18-2007, 08:44 PM	#27 (permalink)
SharinganTH1422 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: East London, England, UK Age: 19 Posts: 1,531	Re: The APC Squad Well Lorax, you are right, but the original question referred to what should the squad do is the SL was killed, but if the rest of the squad was alive. If I'm not mistaken (which I usually am, so tell me if this is one of those times) you are talking about the general functions of a SL and his SMs. I think (and again, correct me if I'm wrong) the question is about what should a squad do when the SL dies, and in my opinion, the SL is unfit to decide then, because he/she does not have the necessary information on what the field is like, during that moment in time. So in this situation, I, as the SL, would probably say to someone else in my squad, or perhaps just everyone in the squad "I'm down, and I don't know what the current situation is, do you think you can push up and get the flag or do you think we should retreat? This should be an autocratic decision, you don't want 5 voices giving an opinion, and the SL, who is meant to have that position is down. So you hand the decision over to someone else. If you are not sure who to pick as you do not know who they are, just pick the person with the highest score, because chances are, the person will know at least enough to make this basic decision. Like you said, it's not a big issue/decision, so just let someone else in a slightly better position make it. And no matter what you are doing, healing, resupplying, firing mortars, if you have the highest score in the squad, you probably have sufficient knowledge to judge what to do. Are there too many enemies to overcome or not? It's a simple yes or no question that only needs a fairly basic knowledge of the game to answer. The top scorer may not be the most experienced, but it makes more sense to put the guy that's top in charge of this decision, as opposed to the guy that's second or third if you don't know who to pick. And again, just re-iterating the fact that if you know the people in the squad and you are not in a pubbie squad, or if a pubbie is showing good initiative and knowledge, then this obviously overrides the score system. __________________ Anger is a gift - Malcolm X ...If you can dream--and not make dreams your master, If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same...

12-18-2007, 09:49 PM	#28 (permalink)
Tarenth Join Date: May 2006 Location: California Posts: 2,198	Re: The APC Squad A bit off topic: On a NS map I once sat in place and EMP locked a full Goliath from the top of building. The goliath was fully loaded and had all its repair plates. I ended that round with 120 teamwork points in addition to my kills and other stuff to get the high score. Does that make me the best SL ever? ^_^ Score means nothing. Its numbers on a board that change depending on where and when you stand at any given moment. Results mean everything. Out of curiosity, how does pod crashing fit in with the 'no ramming' rule? When I'm an engineer against an enemy walker I usually pod out and land on its head as it is EMPed so I can jump down and get a vent shot. I know the pod does some decent damage when it hits armor because I've taken out APCs the same way by podding on top of them and then slapping a pilum round right between my bootstraps. __________________ My sanity is not in question... It was a confirmed casualty some time ago. \|TG\|Tarenth Battlefield 2142 Mirra World of Warcraft Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.

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