Rasta-GR

I think TG is about all members are equal.

Even pubbies on the server.

It's an insult for your entire squad, if you as a SL, have personal preferences.

You could give the responsibility of a small decision to the entire squad, like this:

SL: "SL down, squad take initiative, I'll be back in seconds"

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SharinganTH1422

Then some SMs say: LETS ADVANCE!!!!

Others say: WE NEED TO RETREAT!!!

A couple are confused and just freeze, or fire rockets, not sure what to do.

Initiatve without a clear leader to make a final decision ends in death for the squad. Sorry if it's degrading to others, and I understand what you mean by that, but if I know that one person is a very good player and perfect for a job then they should be given it. If you had to trust someone to decide who would help your squad out, would you choose a pubby you don't know? or a distinguished member of TG who is known for being an excellent SL and all-round player? I know I wouldn't be offended if someone valued a recognised TG player's opinion in the field over mine.

__________________
Anger is a gift - Malcolm X

...If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same...

MDFubar

OK, so I am the Sl and for some reason my APC is taken down and everyone survives but me.
First, the SL should know his surroundings and what he has put his squad into.
Second, the squad is not going to just stop, they know what happened and they are going to take down whomever killed the SL(if possible)
Third, they have an objective already and knwo what they should be doing(because before we got to that point we had established goals.).
So here it is:
"SL Down"
"Guys hold your position and form a defensive perimeter"
"Set up an IDS"
"I am bringing up another APC"

Now mind you, scenarios differ and depending on what took you down would dictate exact responses. Also, keep inmind that your squad is telling you where contacts are and keeping you informed of what is happening around them. A possible response:

SM1 " IDS is set up"
SM2 "Infantry approching NW"
SM3 " Enemy Tank SW"
SM4 "I am DOWN!"
SM5 "SL, best to approach from SE"
SM3 " MM on the main road"

In the heat of the battle, things change. Unlike real life, when the SL goes down..he can still communicate and give orders. There should be no question about what to do, if the SL doesn't know what was going on when he died, then he wasn't paying attention.
The basic thing to keep in mind id that the chain of command does not get broken when the SL dies. The only time I ever put someone else in charge would be when I slpit into two fire teams, in which case it would be: " Ratsa, take lorax and wood to the NE side and set up a defensive perimeter."

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"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
- General George Patton Jr

Augustus Gloop

I think the philosophy of this conversation has wandered a bit from the point of the thread, but let me make a statement about how I view the TG way, before I get back to the APC squad tactics.

TG is about team play, not scoring, and about respecting the chain of command as part of our tactical training. You should do what the SL tells you to do, if it's Damonte, or a one day old newcomer. (Unless it's PromQueen, in which case you should change teams and knife him.) You can all tell the difference between a SL who is trying hard but doesn't have much experience and a SL who is in it for the extra points or doesn't care to lead. You owe the first kind your loyalty, you can find another SL in the next game if you don't enjoy his leadership. You owe the second kind notice that you won't put up with a lazy leader, and if he doesn't lead you'll form your own squad and report him to admins.

Remember that while winning is important, you do not want to win at the expense of the TG code.

On the subject of proper use of an APC, the driver and gunner need to stay in for a number of reasons. The APC needs to stay in motion, or the enemy commander will remove it. The APC is great against infantry, and crap against almost every other vehicle, including the APC. If you're using it as a fast transport for your squad, one engineer and one support should be gunner and driver, with the rest of the squad assault for taking flags. If you're just planning on using it to support other squads, one support and a car full of engineers is definitely the way to go. Depending on what you're facing, coordinated engineers popping out to fire their weapons and repair your apc can be devastating.

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daithi1

Arg sorry

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Tarenth

Back on subject, this is not exactly true. The APC has no offensive capabilies against all armor (with the motars doing craptastic damage against APCs and FAVs) but its support abilities make it a force to be reckoned with. Nothing can beat the 1-2 combination an organized APC team can deliver when they EMP a tank/walker/APC and pod out an engineer to delivery a pilum round up the backside vent. The pods give the engineer superior manuverability and the EMP will freeze and disable the armor making it a sitting target.

Used properly the APC is probably the most effective assault armor since it has no 'one shot kill' weak spot and can deliver a payload almost anywhere.

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My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

Lorax74

A good APC pilot with an EMP in reserve will own an FAV driver every time (don't forget about the pilot's machine gun ).

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TG-9th Lorax74

SharinganTH1422

OK I'm being way misunderstood by everyone, I've repeatedly tried to post my message in different ways, I've broken it down in so many different ways, but for some reason, people are still not getting it.

I'll try one last time, if no-one gets it, it's fine because the thread is going off topic now anyway, as usual people are being annoyed by my posts, and I won't be able to make you understand any more so, but I'll give it a shot with this one anyway.

Fubar:
You say the SL should know what's going on around him, and then you said.

You are exactly right, things do change, and after you die, you do not know how it has changed. You can not quickly scan the area, see how many enemies there are. So you need to ask someone who is on the field and knows what is going on. Unlike some of the more army sim games like ArmA and GRAW, this is a game that can change in the blink of an eye. One minute there are only a few enemies, the next, a whole squad spawns into the flag, or there are loads of enemies, but a friendly squad comes and attacks from the other side. Its' really not a big deal. Just ask someone else(who is alive and active in the field) their opinion on whether you should advance or retreat.

Gloop:

I want to make this point absolutely clear.

Unless someone can quote me for saying it, I do not think that the best player will be at the top of the scoreboard. I do not think that the person at the top of the scoreboard is the best leader. I do not think that the most important thing is points. I would never leave a squad with an SL trying to learn to be the best damn SL he can be.

If I didn't believe in any of these things, I would have left TG on my first day.

Let me tell you a story.

I was in a squad with two TG tagged members for about 2/3 rounds. In the next one, I loaded up and the person who had been SLing was not the leader of any squad. I waited for a while and couldn't see their names on the "Tab" list. Because of the waiting, most of the squads had filled up. I remember the first one, maybe two squads being filled, and then there was another squad with 5. I entered and said:
"Anyone got a mic?"
No reply.
"SL you got a plan?"
Nothing.

I left the squad and joined the one underneath that only had the SL.

The pubbie did have a mic, and I stuck with him.

It was Cerbere, and I asked (and I'm not sure if these were the exact words, but its the jist):

"Do you have a plan?"
"Um, no...I guess we should, right?"
"Yup, so you have any ideas?"
"I guess we can take the buggy up to church..."
"Sure, do you want me to hold spawn?"
"Hold spawn?"
"[Definition of hold spawn]"
"Oh, yh, I guess so, that sounds good. I don't really know that much, so thanks for the info."
"Sure man no probz."

Half way through the round, the SL and I were reeking havoc in the walker and the other two guys from my old squad came up in red global chat saying "OI, COME ON OUR TEAM SHARINGAN, THERE'S SPACE!!!"

I replied with: "sorry, I'll come next round, but not this one."

I know our paths have never crossed on the battlefield Gloop, so you don't know what type of player I am, but I wouldn't do something like what you described. I did not say that you should not have an SL pubbie, actually I usually used to have a non-TG SL, since I play Euro times and not many TG players are on at that time (unless times have changed since I was there). But to make a snapshot decision in the field, I would not have anything against a non-TG player, but I have no idea who the pub player is and what they can do, but I do know that the TG player who is a distinguished high class player would be reliable here to make this quick decision.

And for the last time

I've said my peace, I will no longer be posting on this thread (apart from on APC squads, but not on the other questions asked by Rasta) as it seems I may have inadvertently trod on a few toes (once again), which I apologize for.

__________________
Anger is a gift - Malcolm X

...If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same...

Augustus Gloop

No one can ask for more than that. Thanks Sharingan.

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Rasta-GR

Hi, Sharingan, I think you take personaly.

I understand what you say. Every one here just say an opinion. It is a discussion.

Look, Gloop and Tarenth, both say and agree that the APC has a disadvantage over armor. They have a different opinion for the squad layout and thus disagree.

We all understand what both said. Their approach is different.

You, me and Fubar, all agree that in the heat of the battle, things change fast, and a dead SL will have a tactical disadvantage for those 15 secs or more.

I say the same thing. That's the reason why I ask for suggestions form the squad, or as you said, request a SitRep.

Come on, it's just a discussion

Please post !

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MDFubar

No toes treaded on here. I guess it is hard for me to describe what I am talking about. I try to spend more time looking at my mini-map and less time looking down my barrel. The situation awareness is more important unless we are actually on the move. Because I dies and akse dfor an IDS to be utilized, it would show me the infantry situation while I am waiting to repsawn.
I do understand what you are saying, but I just keep giving orders whether alive or dead. I do listen to my SM's and take in what they are communicating about the immediate situation.
Regardless, I think that the bottom line answer is that: The squad members should follow thier last give orders from the squad leader, at the same time using common sense. If in doubt, ask the squad leader. When the squad leader is down and not revivable, he should continue to give direction to his squad until such time as that he can rejoin them.
There are time that I may even communicate too much.

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"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
- General George Patton Jr

Rasta-GR

Hello,

To summarize the interesting points discussed here.

The SL should be the driver, and the mortar gun should always be mounted.
They do not leave the ACP.

APC is not effective against armor, but can take out a FAV.
APC vs ACP sould be an equal fight, so it’s a matter of tactics to win or loose this fight.

Squad composition

Option 1:
SL = support, driver, supply hub, IDS on board
SM = engineer, mortar gunner
SM = engineer, motion mine bait
SM = assault, medic, medic hub
SM = assault
SM = assault

Option 2:
SL = assault, driver, medic, medic hub
SM = support, mortar gunner, IDS on board
SM = engineer, motion mine bait
SM = engineer
SM = engineer
SM = engineer

If APC is destroyed, squad follows the last order given by their SL.
SL is responsible to assess the situation (by any means) and continue the fight.
SL should spawn back to the UCB and wait for the APC to respawn.

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Bagheera

Sorry it took me so long to respond.

APCs and SL's provide spawn points independent of each other, so by leaving the APC, an SL provides two spawn points by going some distance from his APC. In addition, spawning directly on the SL or APC is done without those huge "LOOK AT ME!" vapor trails from the spawn pods. Here's how I like to use them on large maps such as Tampa;

I think it's the gas station, the CP in the middle of the map. It's surrounded by fences, and difficult to get to due to the two choke points. However, you can park the APC not too far from the rear fence, where there are some holes the in the fence you can run to. The SL runs in BEHIND the squad, providing suppressive fire via Baur, rockets, or a sniper rifle, and has the IDS type drone with him, providing intel. The SM's rush in to cap, and in the event of a bad push, the SL is alive and they can respawn, or if the SL dies, they can respawn on the APC. In addition, a driver/gunner in the APC can provide advance fire with the mortars, and if close enough, a couple of sneaky SL's can pod up onto the roofs of the buildings in the gas station, or up onto the rails on the gas tanks. the SL can do so as well, giving his boys a nice juicy spawn point sans vapor trails, while still having the APC as a secondary spawn point.

In addition, an APC isn't limited to providing spawn points for just your squad. Your SL is a nice fat green dot for your squad to spawn in on, and the APC is a nice fat white dot for your whole team to spawn in on. It's a great way to bring pressure to bear on a CP or silo, as long as you don't have some idiots driving it into the thick of battle. One of the best ways I've seen it used this way is on Belgrade, where people use the APC to bomb the hell out of the Com Tower CP, while their team spawns on the APC doing so. It's hell on the receiving end, and lovely on the giving end.

MDFubar

Bagheera, you are commenting from a Titan play style, correct? In the conquest mode you can only spawn on the SL. I think that may be why we are looking at things slightly different. I almost always play Conquest and have responded based on the particular game.
You make a helluva lot of sense with the APC as a spawn point in Titan though. Well done!

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"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
- General George Patton Jr