Re: Smoke grenades

**Zoraster** · 08-17-2009, 11:45 PM

Once in a blue moon I agree with Kelvin on matters of unlocks. This is that blue moon event.

**SharinganTH1422** · 08-19-2009, 04:03 PM

/discussion

**Deterhek** · 08-19-2009, 04:26 PM

Lol, Kung Pow. That movie is awesome.

**sc1ence** · 08-19-2009, 08:41 PM

I know everyone seems to think they are the suck. I also know that when I use them, they almost always work exactly as I intended.

**Zoraster** · 08-20-2009, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by sc1ence

I know everyone seems to think they are the suck. I also know that when I use them, they almost always work exactly as I intended.

I assume, then, that the intended effect is laughter?

**MrJengles** · 08-20-2009, 08:34 PM

Mmm...well I still think the whole idea of a smoke grenade is being missed. Since smoke actually does give you an advantage in combat, otherwise it would never see real world use.

The advantage is moveable cover, not solid to protect you from shots, but to hide the otherwise clear target from view. Approaching a flag with tactics and skill may work sometimes but the rest of the time, on TG, you're facing a team with just as much skill and their own counter-tactics. Moving in plain sight is hardly the only tactic we use, because a variety are needed.

Smoke reduces your opponents situational awareness as well, not simply your own. Thus, perhaps it weakens you both equally...and by the time it clears your squad is next to them. Advantages range from short ranged weapons now being in close quarters, to having taken extra ground where you would otherwise have been eaten alive trying to run across, because of no cover. As well as possibly being closer to a flag or hill or important area.

On top of that a smart smoke user won't be throwing smoke where it disadvantages you both equally. For example, how about throwing it inbetween you and those enemies ahead...both sides are obscured: disadvantage appears equal. Now what if you actually want to flank the enemy...but rather than run straight at a well defended flank, you decide to run at the centre, take ground, then change direction to the flank, all under the cover of smoke. Example? Camp G attacking harbour -> ramp -> then go East or West rather than to the flag.

The guys in the centre can't see you changing direction, unless they have an IDS/UAV. Their shots are aimed assuming an oncomming path towards them, not knowing that you have no intent to charge them or even engage them. By the time the guys on the flank respond you've already gained ground, and found proper cover.

And you need only kill one guy with the regular gun to exchange kits, most likely, to gain the rockets.

**Zoraster** · 08-20-2009, 08:46 PM

All that is fine in theory... If smoke worked. And if it didn't take up your rockets space. And if IDS and UAVs weren't so prevalent.

**Deterhek** · 08-20-2009, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by MrJengles

Example? Camp G attacking harbour -> ramp -> then go East or West rather than to the flag.

The guys in the centre can't see you changing direction, unless they have an IDS/UAV. Their shots are aimed assuming an oncomming path towards them, not knowing that you have no intent to charge them or even engage them. By the time the guys on the flank respond you've already gained ground, and found proper cover.

There is a problem with this.
The smoke takes a second to become fully opaque, which means that the enemy would see the nade and know someone would be in that general area. So they could just rocket/nade the smoke, or cover the flanks while getting behind cover. If you tried to go to the sides, you would run into enemies behind cover, and they would most likely just slaughter you in the open. If you tried going up the middle the same would happen. If you stayed they would nade/rocket you. The smoke isn't that big either, so at least someone in your squad would be seen. Also, there are [i]bound[/b] to be IDS/UAV in the area, as its a choke point.
Obviously someone wouldn't use smoke, then run straight up the middle of the Harbour flag, its suicidal. The only option would be to go to the sides, and if the enemy is smarter than an average pub squad, well you're not going to get too far.

**MrJengles** · 08-20-2009, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Zoraster

All that is fine in theory... If smoke worked. And if it didn't take up your rockets space. And if IDS and UAVs weren't so prevalent.

Yes well...smoke would have to be better for it to work as well as it truly should in a lot more situations. As it is, it's pretty weak, but I still think it can find the occasional use. IDS and UAVs are not up constantly, much as we wish they were. Again...smoke is only ever going to work if you are going to be running while it is up, stand still and you are likely to die. While you are running you can't use the rockets anyway. So to use the smoke, gain ground, then kill one person -or even let a teammate shoot/rocket someone- then steal the kit, means you get rockets anyway, having taken ground. I don't see how that's worse off than using the rockets from the start in a situation where you couldn't gain the ground. If you could shoot to gain the ground then it obviously wouldn't be a good time to use smoke.

Originally Posted by Deterhek

There is a problem with this.
The smoke takes a second to become fully opaque, which means that the enemy would see the nade and know someone would be in that general area. So they could just rocket/nade the smoke, or cover the flanks while getting behind cover. If you tried to go to the sides, you would run into enemies behind cover, and they would most likely just slaughter you in the open. If you tried going up the middle the same would happen. If you stayed they would nade/rocket you. The smoke isn't that big either, so at least someone in your squad would be seen. Also, there are [i]bound[/b] to be IDS/UAV in the area, as its a choke point.
Obviously someone wouldn't use smoke, then run straight up the middle of the Harbour flag, its suicidal. The only option would be to go to the sides, and if the enemy is smarter than an average pub squad, well you're not going to get too far.

Smoke grenades also have an arc trajectory, you in no way have to be in the line of fire while you throw it. And you can wait until the smoke is up before you show yourself... ie start running a second earlier so you reach near enough to it the moment it's opaque.

They can indeed fire at the smoke, and in the case I suggested I wouldn't even enter the smoke so this would all be fine to me. If they want to fire to the side of smoke incase I go that way...alright, but firstly that's a guess as to which side I go to, and secondly I may indeed run straight through the smoke. Without radar, they don't know...with it, they are limited to aiming at a red dot on a minimap, not impossible for bullets but definitely more difficult than a plain target. Grenades would be down to good aim...bit hard to know exactly where the enemy is going to turn next even with the radar. Rockets and radar is the worst enemy though...still...much better chances considering it is otherwise an open route to take.

Oh yeah, and I'm still thinking of my example: in that the enemy usually have height so it won't hinder the accuracy of rockets, it'll be down to the aim. But in other situations where you are both on the same level, smoke makes rocketing much more difficult...you are limited to aiming at an object either infront or behind a target and adjusting, or the floor. The floor is hard to see where exactly you are aiming when smoked, small objects will be hidden behind the smoke, and...judging distance becomes more difficult for the other. You'd probably want to zig-zag to cover anyway, not run straight at it.

Not sure I'm understanding the rest correctly...if I charge the flanks then I'm charging people in cover. If I gain ground first in a place they are entirely unlikely to shoot at me / might have an entire building in the way, then I engage them whilst I'm in cover...I'm better off.

Also, people tend to hold spawn a lot in rushes - most likely the only time smoke will be of any use is rushing in. They compliment eachother. There could be pleanty of combinations: 3 people, 1 with smoke...pretty much enough to hide them. If SLer gets through, the rest spawn. 6 people, 2 with smoke... Pleanty of options.

If you're not going to get too far perhaps you need a change of tactic...how about...smoke? Lol XD

**Axis_Sniper** · 08-21-2009, 12:08 AM

I'm thinking DICE could give the smoke grenades a little buff, to help with their duty of concealment.

Give it kind of a chaff effect. Once deployed it removes all electronic identities in the smokes radius, and blocks electronic signals from getting through.

ex: A guy notices that he is being followed, he tosses a a smoke grenade in front of him to disorient his pursuers. Once he enters the smoke, his red diamond and blip on the minimap disappear to the people glaring into the smoke since it blocks the satellite/GPS thingymabobber from transmitting the coordinates to the pursuers.

BAM he is concealed from his would-be pursuers, he now has the ability to retreat, or flank.

**Reaperassault** · 08-21-2009, 12:25 AM

hmm that seems like it would be too much, I'm mean there is on specific unlock for the recon to avoid electronic detection. That would be a hell of an improvement but there would be no need for any other kit at that point.

**Axis_Sniper** · 08-21-2009, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by Reaperassault

hmm that seems like it would be too much, I'm mean there is on specific unlock for the recon to avoid electronic detection. That would be a hell of an improvement but there would be no need for any other kit at that point.

Yeah, I kinda forgot about balance while thinking of this. I thought it would keep the same amount of deploy time would be the balance, seeing as smoke lasts like 10 seconds in 2142. But 2142 is very fast, so maybe thought would be a little much.

Maybe it removes electronic identities to people who enter the smoke, but they can be manually identified again( Q-Spot, Commander spotting) when/if they leave the smoke.

**Reaperassault** · 08-21-2009, 12:35 AM

well unfortunately I don't think DICE is developing 2142 any more right now

**Axis_Sniper** · 08-21-2009, 12:38 AM

Yeah, Bad Company 2, Mirror's Edge 2, Battlefield 3... Sure is gonna be a great year on 2014

Wait wait wait, DICE isn't making anymore updates to 2142?

**Reaperassault** · 08-21-2009, 12:59 AM

Well there was a 1.6 patch but the BF2 patch is having so many issues from what I hear that 2142 is getting stalled because of it. There was only a single map and some minor security fixes, no game play updates.

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