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Old 06-11-2008, 09:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

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Originally Posted by Lorax74 View Post
Allectus did not say holding spawn was bad, if that is what you took away from his posts then I suggest you reread them.
(I'm not sure if that's directed at me, but I'll reply anyway.)

Yes of course, he made that clear in his second paragraph in the OP. But he was offering alternative solutions to just holding spawn, and these 3 solutions he gave are not feasible without holding spawn.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:36 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

How do you get the quote box thing?
Wise words by a wise man: For what it is worth, I have squadded with sleeper a few times and he has done a solid job - everyone has off days. Squad leading is often a thankless job and it is pretty easy to screw up.

To echo sc1ence, Sleeper's a great squad lead. If your opinions differ from squad lead, do not be afraid to voice them once and the squad lead will respond as to what he sees fit. However, I'm not sure why you went to the forums instead of trying to squad lead yourself. If these are your beliefs try them out and see how they work with people you do not know. By the way, I personally hate beacons as they are free tickets for the other team that only occupies at most one squad if the commander is good. For me I see it as a choice between killing something that isn't moving, or me as I am usually pretty mobile unless defending a titan silo or something. The usual reason squad bombing for me fails is because I cant drive and end up in some random river or flipped over. Again, squad lead by yourself and before the road gets too difficult and the car will die, bail. Say camp gibraltar, people are going for toll, you hop out on harbor from the third seat already cloaked so no one sees you, whole squad spawns in, and you run off, takes them by surprise and you stay alive. Just squad lead, be aware of the minimap, and you'll enjoy and learn this game a lot more.
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Old 06-12-2008, 02:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

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Originally Posted by Allectus View Post
2) If the initial rush fails, drop a beacon near the front lines for your squad to aid that effort
3) while your squad is helping the front (so the rest of your team isnt utterly slaughtered by the 2/1 or 3/2 odds that they would have been faced with if you had held your squad in the spawn pool) you use spec ops cloaking to get where you're going. Once there have your squad blow the beacon and spawn on you.

This method, I believe, allows for the same envelopment tactics WITHOUT removing an entire squad from the lines.
Actually if you place your spawn beacon near the front of an area that is being heavily raped you will not actually help win you will hasten it because they take your tickets faster.

When you place a beacon you cannot place another till you resupply and that is something you cannot do if your support is half way across the map or your dead.

In the last few weeks and infact that game I have had many players familiar with pubs spawning on what ever flag they want or spawning on me and then wandering what ever way they want to. I gotten too tired of it and will activtly boot people from the squad for not listening after a few min or even less.

You intrigued me so I DLed the file.

machowner this was a different fight than the one your thinking of.

In this game the enemy held all flags the whole game. I tried 2 buggie rushes and died both so we assaulted church a couple times, time and again I would be on one side of church and only one person would stay/protect me everyone else choosing to push around the opposed side from me leavening me to be insta-gibed time and again. We were thrashed a few times this way then I was able to get in to a walker walk it right up to command center and we get there and I notice RDX on the flag, as I was about to call everyone but 2 people off it I get sploded the last guy standing decides that it would be best to knife the enemy commander than to come revive there squad and the guy in the walker gets destroyed quickly, then I tried attacking church a few times more to no effect because again like the other times the squad was not reviving the SL very often at all and they were gunning us down very fast.

The enemy was very entrenched in their position; ever time we attacked flag lots of defenders would reposition to stop us. It's not that we took a long time waiting on spawning its that one team was way way out gunned. There were only 3 rushes done in vehicles though I did ask people to hold spawn once for a vehicle that did not spawn in soon enough. In the entire game I only saw 3 revives on the SL and 2 were back to back revives.

Also you did not drop squad you stayed in it till the end or at least as late as I checked (with in 10-20 seconds of the end).

Quote:
2) If the initial rush fails, drop a beacon near the front lines for your squad to aid that effort
I think this is such a bad suggestion that I want to separate it out.

Once you place a flag near your front lines you don't gain any true advantage of speed because at once your ability to press the attack is reduced, you announce to the enemy where you are coming from and because your spawning on a beacon your no longer protected by the UBC spawn camping rules because spawning on a beacon is optional. If the squad wants to save the run the far far better thing is to revive the SL then you save a ticket and your handy spawn point will run up getting you closer to the enemy.

While taking a back flag cuts the enemy in half because they need to defend versus 2 fronts but because you can not attack into a UBC.

As the SL it is my job to think of what is going on and decide a reasonable course of action that will reasonable bring about a win, they were all tried including straight on attacking a flag and nothing worked.

I believe you were in my squad in wake where I drove a buggy up to the command center then called for all to spawn only to look and see that most of my team was already in game, 4 to be exact. I don’t believe we caped the flag but someone gave the excuse that hey we were helping our team and were right in to spawn on you, they forgot that they wasted 4 tickets on separate unsupported attacks that had little to no chance of success.

When I SL I demand people hold spawn till I call them in when required, I demand people to follow with me, there’s no middle ground for running a do what you want squad. If you see something and say in squad people at X flag spawning there or getting armor from UBC that can be ok but just doing it is not.

I have no problem filling a squad ever with people if you want to join me that’s fine but I will still play it the way I think it is going to go well and fun for the squad and my self.

I am not a prefect or even the best SL but I am an effective enough one to get the job done.
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Old 06-12-2008, 12:02 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

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Originally Posted by Bomber View Post
How do you get the quote box thing?
Press the quote button at the bottom right of the post.

(The "quote +" button allows you to quote multiple posts.)
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Old 06-12-2008, 12:13 PM   #20 (permalink)

 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

Or use the BBCode for quote:

[quote]Quoted text here[/quote]


Or click the icon that looks like a cartoon word bubble (icon on the far right of the simple editor).

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Old 06-12-2008, 12:27 PM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

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Originally Posted by Bomber View Post
How do you get the quote box thing?
Wise words by a wise man: For what it is worth, I have squadded with sleeper a few times and he has done a solid job - everyone has off days. Squad leading is often a thankless job and it is pretty easy to screw up.
Also the default interface is the simple interface you can turn on the advanced interface in "user cp" then you get buttons for that pics links and other things.
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Old 06-12-2008, 12:50 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

I agree with Lorax's comments on the subject. Holding spawn is by all intents a tactical decision that must be made by the SL and it's situational. A good SL knows when to have his team hold spawn, i.e. at the beginning of a Tunis Harbor round when FAV's(2) are limited and you need to get to Power Station. A good SL also knows when to have his team spawn on other than him, i.e. while defending a flag or silo it can be advantageous. By in large having a team hold spawn is the more often than not, best way to play the game, it keeps the team together. Rarely have I played with a TG tagged SL that had us hold spawn for so much of the game we virtually didn't play. Did I consider it boring, heck ya, and quite useless as a matter of fact because the talents of five other players were wasted and as you pointed out we could have helped to even the odds.

However, that has been a rarity and I would remember if someone who was my SL did it on more than one occassion or consistently tried a tactic that wasted so much time. If that were the case I was just refrain from grouping with them again as more of a difference in play style vice anything else. That being said, more often than not the SL's in TG I've grouped with have done excellent jobs and I don't mind occassionally waiting a bit before being able to exercise my military prowess :P on the battlefield.
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:14 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

A squad beacon is the same thing as an Sl that stands still and shoots rockets strait up.
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:12 AM   #24 (permalink)
 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

I think most squad leaders don't foresee a contingency.

I've seen that "Wait... wait.... oh he's dead. Wait... wait for it... waiiiittt..." way too many times, and I think it's because the squad leader in question simply puts the blinders on and wants his little rush to succeed. If at first you don't succeed, try something ELSE, jeez.

If after two attempts the SL is still failing, I'll loudly suggest we try something else, and / or find a new squad.
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:13 AM   #25 (permalink)

 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

Sleeper, what you’re learning now are the things reaper had to learn the hard way. Few TG SLs have understood this idea and fewer still have applied it properly.

Let’s break down the facts:
- PAC SL assaulting Cerbere
- Made several buggy rushes, each failed
- Got revived 3 times during the entire round

Essentially, your squad was a mess and you accomplished nothing. The problem is that you expected too much of your squad members – the buggy rush objectives were too difficult for them. If you were revived 3 times during the round, your tactics were too hard for your medics – they weren’t skilled and experienced enough.

You should have realized that your squad doesn’t have the horsepower to pull off the usual TG blitzkrieg tactics and you should have downshifted your expectations. You should have set easier objectives and expected much less of your SMs. You should have stayed back, safely, to provide a spawn point, and supported other squads in large, slow pushes that would take bleed off, albeit in a very time and ticket costly way.

The problem here is that you weren’t used to playing with a squad of newbies and it was difficult for you to change your expectations from “usual TG butt kicking” to “let’s take on something easier – let’s take it slow and let’s praise people when they do simple things like revives correctly. Let’s do damage control.”

Shifting expectations in such a dramatic fashion is pretty difficult. You’ll hear a lot of people scoffing at this – “surely it can’t be that difficult to realize your squad is a bit on the weak side – know what you’re working with and set objectives accordingly.”

It’s not easy. As an experienced squad leader, I find this to be the hardest aspect of leading on TG. I run open squads like you do, Sleeper, and this is a prime problem for us. Other SLs lock squads and invite competent people – we throw the dice for the good or the bad at each round start.

I can count on my left hand the number of skilled, experienced SLs who have successfully adapted from:
“I expect my SMs to revive me, I expect to be alive at all cost, I expect my SMs to revive the squad, I expect my SMs to hold spawn, I expect my SMs to cover me, I expect my SMs to spawn in when asked – without instruction
to
“I’m working with some very inexperienced people. I can’t rush flags because my medics won’t know to cover me when it’s important. I can’t take the front seat, and we can’t be the meat and potatoes of this team. I can’t keep a great squad kill/death ratio because most people here are newbies. I need to take it easy, be patient, and teach them things. Instruct them, and take them close to action – show them teamwork and let them learn things. Expecting them to perform much better is useless and will make them hate me – I need to drop my expectations and be happy when they catch a revive. I need to stay back and be a spawn point. I’m not going to see a lot of action, but I will let my SMs have fun and I’ll try to do my best for the team. It’s obvious we won’t take a flag, but let’s try and do damage control – let’s go for revives, let’s support other squads.”

That kind of a downshift in expectations is difficult and ugly. A lot of people can’t do that downshift – they can’t fun with newbies. A lot of people, a lot of TG people, define fun as kicking ass in a skilled squad of TGers. Not a lot of TG people define fun as having fun in a squad of newbies.

The sad truth is, the more experienced as players we get, the harder it is to work with newbies – the harder it is to be humble and patient and praise them for accomplishments that seem tiny and insignificant in comparison to our usual play.

It’s hard to take your expectations down from “I’m going to be the man 32 people on the other team are hunting down” to “I’m going to be the guy who sees the least action in this squad but I’m going to make sure the other five newbies have fun and learn something.”

I truly believe that your only mistake in this round, Sleeper, was not properly shifting down your expectations. You tried five buggy rushes because you expected that it would work with the players in your squad. What you didn’t realize is that the players in your squad weren’t experienced and that you’ve set unrealistic expectations for them. I’ve done the same, recently no less, and I sympathize with you. I get very used to playing with the TG regulars. I get used to not dying. I just don’t speak when I’m dead because there’s no use – I’ll be up before I finish asking for a medic. That’s what I’m used to, that’s what I’m expecting. I reach a mental block when I die in a buggy rush and I’m not immediately revived – it boggles me at first, and then it just frustrates me. It takes a lot of self-control not to blow up – simple things like this shouldn’t be difficult. It takes an extra bit of effort to calm down, and realize you are not working with extremely skilled people. It takes a lot of humbleness and patience to shift your expectations from “fast and furious assault squad” to “damage control squad.” It takes maturity and humbleness to realize that the things you take for granted – keeping the SL alive, SMs holding spawn, shooting accurately, and reviving properly – these things are just foreign to newbies. They need to be taught these things and you have to be patient with them. You have to expect less of them, and praise them when they do simple things right.

It’s something to think about as a squad leader – know who you’re working with, know what you can do with them, and lead accordingly. Expecting risky tactics to work with newbie squad members is going to be fruitless and frustrating. You're going to get frustrated that things aren't working out as usual, and your SMs will get frustrated because the squad will be dead most of the time. And there comes the worst aspect of unrealistic expectations: your SMs aren't going to have fun, and they will lash out at you, like Allectus did here. It doesn't matter that the logic and tactics of his complaint aren't valid -- he has a valid point. He didn't have fun, and it's because you set unrealistic expectations for him and the other SMs.

I’ll leave it at that. Take a moment and figure out who you’re working with – assess the general skill level of your squad members. Then, set your expectations and objectives accordingly. That may mean aiming for smaller things, but if it’s so, let it be so. Learn to have fun with newbies.
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:37 AM   #26 (permalink)
 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

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machowner this was a different fight than the one your thinking of.
I see, well, either way you've done a solid job as an SL for me. Sometimes Carebear can be a real beast. Its both my favorite and least favorite map.
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:09 PM   #27 (permalink)
 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

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I see, well, either way you've done a solid job as an SL for me. Sometimes Carebear can be a real beast. Its both my favorite and least favorite map.
Thank you, I am always glad to have you in the squad!
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Old 06-13-2008, 01:15 PM   #28 (permalink)
 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

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Essentially, your squad was a mess and you accomplished nothing. The problem is that you expected too much of your squad members – the buggy rush objectives were too difficult for them. If you were revived 3 times during the round, your tactics were too hard for your medics – they weren’t skilled and experienced enough.
I dont think that they were 2 of the 3 failed because the jeep or I exploded.

The 3rd and last rush in a walker was mostly my fault we died and did not cap the flag because I called all on the flag, I was in the rear and did not see the single RDX till I was close by then it was too late. Reaily blame for that should be shared with better players because they can say something in chat but thats not something I adjust & expect myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhohar View Post
The problem here is that you weren’t used to playing with a squad of newbies and it was difficult for you to change your expectations from “usual TG butt kicking” to “let’s take on something easier – let’s take it slow and let’s praise people when they do simple things like revives correctly. Let’s do damage control.”
I play all the time with nubs and I make it a habit to call out the good plays I praise people often for good work.


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Originally Posted by Zhohar View Post
You should have realized that your squad doesn’t have the horsepower to pull off the usual TG blitzkrieg tactics and you should have downshifted your expectations. You should have set easier objectives and expected much less of your SMs. You should have stayed back, safely, to provide a spawn point, and supported other squads in large, slow pushes that would take bleed off, albeit in a very time and ticket costly way.
I disagree if we had of made it back we would be versus a lot less people meaning our odds would go up to survive. And we would of pulled people off the front lines makeing things a lot more liquid so the other teams may have been able to cap a flag. I consider a rush to the back that fails to cap a flag but pulls enough defenders off the front lines so that you cap a flag a win.


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I truly believe that your only mistake in this round, Sleeper, was not properly shifting down your expectations. You tried five buggy rushes because you expected that it would work with the players in your squad. What you didn’t realize is that the players in your squad weren’t experienced and that you’ve set unrealistic expectations for them. I’ve done the same, recently no less, and I sympathize with you. I get very used to playing with the TG regulars. I get used to not dying. I just don’t speak when I’m dead because there’s no use – I’ll be up before I finish asking for a medic. That’s what I’m used to, that’s what I’m expecting. I reach a mental block when I die in a buggy rush and I’m not immediately revived – it boggles me at first, and then it just frustrates me. It takes a lot of self-control not to blow up – simple things like this shouldn’t be difficult. It takes an extra bit of effort to calm down, and realize you are not working with extremely skilled people. It takes a lot of humbleness and patience to shift your expectations from “fast and furious assault squad” to “damage control squad.” It takes maturity and humbleness to realize that the things you take for granted – keeping the SL alive, SMs holding spawn, shooting accurately, and reviving properly – these things are just foreign to newbies. They need to be taught these things and you have to be patient with them. You have to expect less of them, and praise them when they do simple things right.
I did actualy down shift after 2 back to back buggy rushes failed I pushed in to church 2+ times on foot both times supporting another squad+ that was there both times and both times more defenders came over from south town center or other flags. The more I look at the replays the more I think I did not rush enough because they had us so out classed on the bottom 2 flags we could not take an inch away from them.

No better place to learn then in the heat of battle where it maters the most. I believe that a SL can inspire greatness in a squad of newbs I think I acomplish it a lot of the time and have great rounds even if we don't win usualy my squad has a great score even with nubs because were right in the center of the action and even nubs do great.


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I’ll leave it at that. Take a moment and figure out who you’re working with – assess the general skill level of your squad members. Then, set your expectations and objectives accordingly. That may mean aiming for smaller things, but if it’s so, let it be so. Learn to have fun with newbies.
Even the smaller things were done porely.

As SL I did just about everything I should have been doing during this fight, the other team was just better.
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:52 PM   #29 (permalink)
 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

One thing I've been doing occasionally, is going onto to pub servers and squad leading there. See if you can inspire 5 random nubs on a server that's not known for great players to work as a team.

I've played on a few other servers and I've yet to get everyone to work together. This is something I've been working on so that I can bring it to TG and have an even better effect with the advanced skills of the players here.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:10 PM   #30 (permalink)

 
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Re: Squad Bombin Hurts Your Team

Too much reading, LOL. First and foremost, I have had the pleasure of being an SM for you Sleeper and you do a fine job. Second, Holding spawn can not be stressed enough when that is what the Sl wants. You have no idea what is going on inthier mind and they DO have a plan. I SL 99% of the time and lately have tried to Sm more to catch a break. I always ask my squad to hold spawn in the beginning so we can move as a team. If we are attacking, I want them to spawn on me so we can function as one unit. If we are defending, then I will have them spawn on the flag.
The Squad Beacon..........to me this is nothing more than a death trap. Smoke trails from the sky saying "shoot me here, this is where we are landing". No movement, no chance to change your approach other than telling them to spawn on a flag....alas they can not spawn on you until someone destroys the beacon.
Everyone has off days and I have had my share. I will say this, if you ignore my orders you will not be in my squad very long. It was mentioned about the use of a recon.....well while attacking I prefer to have medics for the revives. Once the asset base is taken, then someone can come in and take out the assets.
If you do not have a lot of experience SL'ing, then I strongly suggest that you give it a shot repeatedly and see how your ideas work out. Then revisit this thread and see if you still feel the same way.
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