Can a good Sniper/Spotter team help a team?

**Axis_Sniper** · 02-23-2009, 04:58 PM

I've always wondered when sniping not only be good tactically in this game, but strategically as well. I've noticed that a lot of people condemn sniping as a point hungry maneuver that doesn't benefit a team as a whole. So I've always wanted to ask you guys this:

When WILL sniping overcome that barrier?

I was thinking of a little a 6-man squad split into a two 3-man teams for sniping on most maps.

1 Recon
Zeller-H Advanced Sniper Rifle
Gruber 5 Stabilizer
APM

1 Assault Medic
Voss L-AR
Herzog AR-Shotgun
AED-6 Defibrillator

1 Support
Ganz HMG
IDS-1 Infantry Sonar
Optional

Sniper and Medic has Light Armor, the Support has Heavy. If it's a Vehicle based map, then I suggest the support take EMP grenades, and Recon take RDX, or just entirely avoid vehicles at all. Actually, I don't think this would be very effective on vehicle maps, but I could be wrong.

Tell me what you guys think, and your opinion on sniping for the benefit of the entire team.

Wow, after posting this, the title looks extremely confusing.

**Lorax74** · 02-23-2009, 05:23 PM

Here's the problem as I see it: a dedicated sniper squad usually isn't very mobile, they pick a spot and camp there going for whatever kills they can get. If revives where a rarity and less the norm, this squad might actually have an impact. However, on our servers the majority of players will revive even it it means picking up someone's kit to do it. There is also the problem of being fairly ineffective in close quarters. Since close quarters is an issue, a sniper squad can't really be relied on to take flags, so if your team is under bleed, that's how many people that are not attempting to flip a flag in your favor? Too many.

Now, on certain maps this could work, As EU on Fall of Berlin or Cerbere landing for instance while EU still has PAC under bleed, sure, but as PAC, unless the bleed is off and you've got EU bottled up somewhere, no, not practical.

And lastly, were a sniper squad can really shine: Level 2 unlock night. I'm not trying to be cute or funny by shamelessly plugging, I'm being serious. With limited unlocks (e.g. no rockets or sprint), the sniper becomes much more of a threat. A squad of a few skilled snipers could effectively suppress another squad.

**Lyramion** · 02-23-2009, 06:01 PM

Sniper for Spotters can be nice on armor maps. Get a sniper up on a tower and he can see whats going on around the flag.

On infantry maps the radius of IDS Otus and things are big enough usually to scout out the neaby area.

**Axis_Sniper** · 02-23-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorax74

Here's the problem as I see it: a dedicated sniper squad usually isn't very mobile, they pick a spot and camp there going for whatever kills they can get. If revives where a rarity and less the norm, this squad might actually have an impact. However, on our servers the majority of players will revive even it it means picking up someone's kit to do it. There is also the problem of being fairly ineffective in close quarters. Since close quarters is an issue, a sniper squad can't really be relied on to take flags, so if your team is under bleed, that's how many people that are not attempting to flip a flag in your favor? Too many.

Now, on certain maps this could work, As EU on Fall of Berlin or Cerbere landing for instance while EU still has PAC under bleed, sure, but as PAC, unless the bleed is off and you've got EU bottled up somewhere, no, not practical.

And lastly, were a sniper squad can really shine: Level 2 unlock night. I'm not trying to be cute or funny by shamelessly plugging, I'm being serious. With limited unlocks (e.g. no rockets or sprint), the sniper becomes much more of a threat. A squad of a few skilled snipers could effectively suppress another squad.

Damn, I knew there was this giant counterpoint I was totally forgetting... But yes, I was hoping for Snipers to actually mean something beneficial to the team as a whole, but it's hard to find them any practical use of a TG "Clear!" Server

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyramion

Sniper for Spotters can be nice on armor maps. Get a sniper up on a tower and he can see whats going on around the flag.

On infantry maps the radius of IDS Otus and things are big enough usually to scout out the neaby area.

I was thinking of having an actualy a two 3-man fireteam from one squad cover Toll or something, but that does make having a Sniper useful for the lowly engie wanderer.

**MDFubar** · 02-23-2009, 07:28 PM

Remember that most snipers can be easily countered with rockets and on our server, you need to beware of them. If your medic dies, will you pick up the kit and revive them? Then what, you are now a medic and the medic is now the sniper......

**Axis_Sniper** · 02-23-2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDFubar

Remember that most snipers can be easily countered with rockets and on our server, you need to beware of them. If your medic dies, will you pick up the kit and revive them? Then what, you are now a medic and the medic is now the sniper......

Jeez, just so many holes in my argument.

**Zhohar** · 02-23-2009, 08:24 PM

The chief problem with snipers is that they cannot prevent a revive.

A sniper is usually so far away from his target that he can't use anything but his sniper rifle to engage. This is a huge problem because most other classes use their secondary weapon (grenades usually) to stop wounded enemies from being revived.

The sniper rifle does not do enough damage per second, nor enough splash damage to prevent a revive. Nor can a sniper can stop (or in most cases even harm) a medic who is sprinting and diving for a revive.

**draeh** · 02-23-2009, 08:32 PM

In the bottled up positions, I have been able to give my assaults very good information as a sniper. Take for instance when EU becomes trapped at Outpost on Fall of Berlin. I will go sniper, lay traps, and then begin to spot and provide bearings and distances for the rocket whores. A sniper can be very effective in seeing distant maneuvers before they get close enough to become a threat.

**Anospa** · 02-23-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by draeh

In the bottled up positions, I have been able to give my assaults very good information as a sniper. Take for instance when EU becomes trapped at Outpost on Fall of Berlin. I will go sniper, lay traps, and then begin to spot and provide bearings and distances for the rocket whores. A sniper can be very effective in seeing distant maneuvers before they get close enough to become a threat.

The rounds where I've felt the most useful as a recon have been largely because of this. I can safely say that its taken more tickets away than I've been able to do by myself. Snipe one person, the reviver comes in and you've told your assault buddy to rocket that area and give them the right distance to air burst, and now you've got another ticket taken.

Snipers can really shine when you're playing low numbers. Its pretty apparent in league play that assault is the go to kit and will be the most useful. But, on some of the larger maps (Suez, Tampa, etc.), we've had a recon in the squad before, and I can tell you its devastating. Teams that don't work together fall apart incredibly fast; stealing tickets one by one becomes even easier when you're working with your assault buddy as described above. The cool part, you're really being that devastating sniper that people seem to talk about a lot on the forums, you're sneaky, hiding in some position and moving around taking shots of opportunity when they present themselves.

As for Zhohar's comment about snipers not being able to prevent a revive, its a pretty safe statement to make. As good as I am (not trying to be condescending, just want to clarify as I've been incommunicado and newer folks may not know/recognize me), its rare that I can take out someone going in for the revive when they know what they are doing.

As Lyra said, you can actually be of use as a mobile spotter on a large vehicle map. Be careful, you are only one ticket, but that's still one ticket, and if you're doing your job well, you can help out your team: showing enemy armor moving out of the UCB, spotting the gunship, etc.

In the end though, you've gotta know when to lay down the rifle and become a revive lemming, its a more balanced kit and has a stronger influence on the flow of the battle.

**Axis_Sniper** · 02-24-2009, 03:38 AM

Man, if only Snipers cause insta-kills with a headshot...

Hopefully in the new update Snipers headshots won't cause insta kills, but after 3 seconds of not being revived, you go from critically wounded to dead.

Think about it, doesn't cause an overbalance of the recon kit, but actually makes the Sniper for ambushes. Unless the squad trying to sneak up is holding out the defibs already, the guy that gets hit is dead. What do you guys think?

**pred011586** · 02-24-2009, 04:15 AM

If headshots were just straight insta-gibs, it'd make snipers more useful. Not many people focus on revives as much as TG does, so giving it those 3 seconds would be the same as making it insta-gib.

Insta-gib headshots will also make alot of people think twice about popping out from behind cover, and would give snipers a potential suppressive fire element to them. The only problem I see would be everyone wanting to switch to snipers for the insta-gib, but in the end, that would just hurt your team because you won't have as many defibs. An intelligent balance between snipers and medics would be needed.

Also, another buff snipers badly need. Body shots on light armor should bring the soldier down, but revivable. Heavy armor should take the same damage that light armor does now. I don't understand how a sniper shot to the head doesn't insta-gib, nor do I really understand how a sniper short to a lightly armored torso doesn't critically wound.

If these buffs were in BF2142 you would see alot more uses for snipers, especially on TG servers where we got some amazingly skilled shots. The only problem is, outside of TG, there's enough people that use aim bots that would completely unbalance the game in their favor. Pack a sniper rifle and get your team about 1 ticket a second with instant headshots.

However all of the above is just wishful thinking. In our current state, snipers see a very limited use. The only times I ask my SL if I can switch to a sniping kit, is when I notice one of the following:

a.) There are contacts spread out in such a way that the 15 second timer isn't enough to revive. A perfect example of this would be a baby tunis stalemate, with EU soldiers up in the catwalks of those oil tanker silo things. If one is alone on the top floor, that's an easy ticket waiting to be taken. Another example would be snipers on the roof of Shingles Command Center, there's not always a medic up there, and if not, easy tickets. Yet another example would be the crane behind Eastern docks on big tunis.

b.) I notice a reliance on motion mines by the enemy for area denial of our armor. Sure the armor pilot SHOULD be able to just pop out and throw motion mine bait, but more often than not, I notice that armor pilots would rather sit still in the armor and wait it out. Either because of a lack of MMB to throw, or because they can't risk dieing and handing the vehicle over to the enemy. A Zeller is perfect for this, at mid-range it's easy to shoot down MMs freeing up a path for your armor to take without having to risk losing it. This has the added benefit that if an enemy engineer decides to attempt to go rogue to get behind the armor, you'll have a clear shot at the back of his head as he lines up the shot. Granted that last bit is useless in competition play, but on our servers it's a fairly regular occurance.

Past those two situations, I'm not good enough of a shot to willingly pick up a sniper rifle, plus I know that I get tunnel vision with them, so unless one of the above situations occurs, I'd opt for the Ganz over a sniper rifle. However if you can honestly say that you don't get affected by sniper tunnel vision, then another good use of a sniper is body camping. I remember a round on baby tunis in which I was in a squad with Lyra. I was assault, Lyra was sniping. He'd get a body shot on the point man of a squad running towards a flag, and I'd finish him off with a Krylov from a different angle. As his squad came out to revive him, we picked them off one by one in this manner until our SL called us away. Granted it would be smarter to sit there and let them give us their tickets like that, since it was a small game, but I didn't feel like nitpicking with the SL over what the more tactically sound decision would be, especially since it was his squad, not mine.

There are certainly situations in which a sniper can be a huge help to your team, but please, don't take away from this the message: "You can always find a use for sniping." Because, unfortunately, you can't. Snipers have their place on the battlefield... unfortunately those places are few and far between. If you must take a recon kit, go with the lambert, RDX+APM, or Ghost+Cloak, depending on the role you'll be playing. If you think you see a situation arising in which a sniper would be useful, ask yourself the following questions:

1.) Honestly speaking, am I going to get tunnel vision?
2.) Are the kills that I intend to get going to be easily revivable?
3.) Are my shots the ONLY way to safely remove motion mines?
4.) Is the enemy team spread out so thin that with some teamwork from my squad we can take down an entire squad with my body shots?

If you're answer is yes to 1, or if you're answer is no to both 2, and 4, then put the sniper rifle away. If your reason for taking a sniper rifle (Zeller in this case) is to clear MMs, then check if another member of the squad can spawn in engie with MMB before you pick up a sniper rifle solely for MM clearing, or just spawn in with MMB yourself, if you have it.

I hope this helps with your search for a use for the sniper rifle. Sorry if there's alot of typos in this, I'm seeing alot of red squiggly lines, but it's 3am for me and I'd rather not go back and check for typos =(.

**Axis_Sniper** · 02-24-2009, 04:28 AM

Hmm, what if the sniper was as a fail-safe for defending squads, ex: Docks Office on baby Tunis? Have the Sniper camp in the Silos between office and PAC main base. He covers the ramp leading to PAC main, if the flag on office goes neutral, he detonates the strategically placed RDX that was around the flag. I mean not like 4 RDXs sitting all together, but enough placement to give a good 20m kill radius.

The sniper isn't gonna be shooting like a sentry gun, but only when necessary, like if the were at flanking around a squad or capping flag.

Mercenary90 · 02-24-2009, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axis_Sniper

Hmm, what if the sniper was as a fail-safe for defending squads, ex: Docks Office on baby Tunis? Have the Sniper camp in the Silos between office and PAC main base. He covers the ramp leading to PAC main, if the flag on office goes neutral, he detonates the strategically placed RDX that was around the flag. I mean not like 4 RDXs sitting all together, but enough placement to give a good 20m kill radius.

The sniper isn't gonna be shooting like a sentry gun, but only when necessary, like if the were at flanking around a squad or capping flag.

If that was the case, what would prevent you from giving that Recon a Lambert and having him in close range, throwing RDX over walls?

A few things I've noticed:
On urban maps, snipers are not much more than annoyances. They are excellent for shooting loners, but since most people in TG group up, it's unlikely you will be able to cover the body effectively unless you are extremely skilled at shooting moving targets or instakilling the person who is revived. Why? The extremely slow rate of fire.
Therefore, you can either aim for the head or follow the 19th century strategy of compensating for rate of fire through massed firepower.
If one made a pure-Recon squad with all standard sniper rifles and relatively good shots in said squad, I believe that this sniper squad would be able to inflict significant casualties on defence in conjunction with RDX/APMs due to its greatly increased volume of fire and potential to insta-kill, but is absolutely useless in offense and in smaller games, since the nature of the Recon kit detracts from the number of people able to revive fallen soldiers.

In larger maps, snipers are an awesome force, mainly because the distances between individual members of a squad is so much greater, making the covering of bodies easier and the avoidance of rockets even easier. Plus, the larger amount of map space available allows for more creative, difficult-to-find hiding spots. Unfortunately, due to the presence of armor on such maps, snipers must usually infiltrate deep behind enemy lines to score kills on infantry who are defending flags. But for squads in the open (the space between Western Farm and Church, for example) one or two can slow down an advance considerably (Chris Hooper, anyone?)
Maybe, then, we should create an Assets squad comprised of 3 people: 1 Assault, 1 Recon/Support, and 1 Engineer. However, they MUST have a buggy in order to be effective, or elsewise they would be intercepted and killed much too easily. This squad would be effective in staying behind enemy lines, mining the roads leading from the uncap in order to inhibit the movement of enemy armor. But in such cases, there is not much benefit in having a Recon vs. a Support.

**Axis_Sniper** · 02-24-2009, 05:08 AM

I was thinking of the having the recon with the Lambert instead of a Sniper Rifle, but what if he gets downed? I was also thinking of maybe having the Sniper call out targets, and provide fire on the rocketteers that decide to hang back and just shoot their entire rocket ammo into Office. But then there is still of having the enemy finding his position and unleashing their rockets their instead at office...But then that gives the defenders at office to send a fireteam to flank...Gah! So many possibilities, so many outcomes.

**MDFubar** · 02-24-2009, 07:21 AM

The ideas are good and you should keep throwing them out there, but I have to ask how often you play on our server with TG squads. Many of the things you describe would work on pub servers, but our level of communication is far better than most. When someone goes down from any fire, let alone a sniper, they usually call out where the shot came from. Medic goes for the revive and the rest of the squad takes out the enemy, sniper or not. Our communication is what makes us much better at revives and tactics.