Re: Harbor/Toll Standoff: Who Has the Advantage?

**EmperorMustard** · 03-04-2009, 01:02 PM

Often this depends on the map. For example if EU on Care bear is down to just Command and down on tickets, they should defend and watch as the PAC throw away countless tickets running into rocket mines.

Infact, generally speaking if a game is close any team should be looking to defend. If you keep close together when defending, you will be revived and thus not lose tickets. (not so close that everyone gets killed of course)

A good example of back SL'ing (or could SL'ing) was last night on Camp Gib. My team (EU) was down to just Central and down on tickets, which isn't a great position. I think at one point the score was 20 - 39 in PAC favour. So my SL told us to dig in and keep reviving. And so we did that as countless PAC made hopeless manoeuvres and we eventually won 3 - 0.

I think that if the EU has lost Harbour on Camp Gib, it's a waste to go and retake it from Toll. Firstly it's a very hard thing to do, such is the distance and the amount of open ground you will have to cover. Secondly, if the PAC are attacking you they are gonna be losing alot of tickets if you stop them reviving. Thirdly, the PAC aren't going anywhere if the EU has eyes. It's actually quite easy to bypass the EU when they are defending Harbour, but at Toll its very compact and therefore hard to sneak by. Also, the flag is very open, visible to the EU from atleast 3 sides so it would take a large and co-ordinated rush to overhaul it.

**Exploding_Silver** · 03-04-2009, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Lyramion

imo PAC has an advantage being outside. The space is much bigger and you can revive and spread out more easy. EU is all crammed together into toll. Can get camped with rockets easy.

For the EU side I think when they down tickets they actually should fall back into central to avoid the toll standoff.

If EU wants to push in a single Squad sill 95% fail. The best would be a coordinated push on the left and right catwalk together with one squad in the middle.

to play for tickets this is correct strategy completely

for me its a balance of fun vs tickets
I have done a lot of stand offs and don't really want (yet again) to be in 20 mins doing rockets, so i often push an attack, unless the commander specifically says not to

**pred011586** · 03-04-2009, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by PM07SNV

I guess this is also why you will lose a ticket when someone is disconnected from the server.. (How did I not think of this before??)

And also why deaths in vehicles is not only an instant death for the team, but instant ticket as well!

And why your team loses a ticket if you switch sides mid round, while alive. I used to see this alot before I came to TG. When the number of people on the server would drop below 8, everyone would switch to PAC before the match started. If the tickets were even, then EU would lose ~4 tickets and a few seconds later, the server would declare a win for PAC because of the lack of players, then switch to the next map in the rotation to wait to be seeded. If it was an Assault map, then PAC started with the ticket lead anyways, so everyone just switched to PAC to be on the winning side for the easy win. =(

**Lorax74** · 03-04-2009, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by pred011586

And why your team loses a ticket if you switch sides mid round, while alive. I used to see this alot before I came to TG. When the number of people on the server would drop below 8, everyone would switch to PAC before the match started. If the tickets were even, then EU would lose ~4 tickets and a few seconds later, the server would declare a win for PAC because of the lack of players, then switch to the next map in the rotation to wait to be seeded. If it was an Assault map, then PAC started with the ticket lead anyways, so everyone just switched to PAC to be on the winning side for the easy win. =(

This isn't quite right.

Someone disconnecting from the server does not cause your team a ticket, but switching teams will. One is a suicide, one is not.

If the population count dips below the required number of players, we have it set to 8, the map will restart and you'll see the message "Waiting for players, blah blah blah", basically the time when people just goof off since you can't cap flags, etc. When this happens, neither team wins, the map is simply restarted.

**TomDaSlaya** · 03-04-2009, 04:35 PM

To avoid the original questions and offer another:

Seeing as it is much easier to break through Toll Station, as PAC, when EU still has control of harbor and is thus using resources to defend it (and not Toll); How many tickets can PAC afford to lose before capturing Harbor in an effort to make a breakthrough while Toll is less defended? Is it worth it at all to avoid a 30 min standoff? (in other words, should PAC ever allow EU to keep Harbor?)

Its ok if you think I'm crazy, because I am.

**Naith** · 03-04-2009, 05:03 PM

PAC can burst past a heavily defended toll...
Get a SL to climb up the catwalk on the East, have him drop down into the out of bounds zone, run to the wall outside Ruins. There's a huge hill there, and a jump from that over the wall IS possible.
It's worked for me..
So I'd always try to make the push. I hate the monotony of fragging/reviving.

**pred011586** · 03-04-2009, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Lorax74

When this happens, neither team wins, the map is simply restarted.

So the "PAC Wins" message is just there for show? (not being sarcastic, honestly asking). If the server dips below 8 during the 2-minute warmup, the round will start and about 5 seconds in it will end with the team with the most tickets getting the Win screen, and the opposite getting the Loss screen (Draw if tickets are equal). I've been on both sides of this so I know for a fact that the win/loss/draw screen comes up, but I never actually tested if the stats are recorded. I also noticed the map isn't simply reset, it goes to the next map, I remember this happening more than once. Server fell below 8, got the win/loss/draw screen, then a different map loaded (I think it was Shuhia, I don't remember was awhile ago). On the new map it had the "waiting for more players" message.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened, again though, I've never tested if stats got sent in to the server.

**PM..** · 03-05-2009, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by TomDaSlaya

How many tickets can PAC afford to lose before capturing Harbor in an effort to make a breakthrough while Toll is less defended?

Toll may be less defended, but should be defended enough to stop you unless you manage to get a sizable chunk of the PAC team to attack Toll without being stopped by the defence at Harbour.. Would take some co-ordination between SL's to achieve, but why not give it a try? New ideas and tactics are always nice! I'd give this a go.. However, you will then have to move fast for another flag, as having Toll is not good if you don't have Harbour or Central Camp. And defending it then is very hard! In fact most cap-outs I've seen have been when EU only has Harbour or Toll, which shows it's very hard to defend.

Originally Posted by tinithe

PAC can burst past a heavily defended toll...
Get a SL to climb up the catwalk on the East, have him drop down into the out of bounds zone, run to the wall outside Ruins. There's a huge hill there, and a jump from that over the wall IS possible.
It's worked for me..
So I'd always try to make the push. I hate the monotony of fragging/reviving.

I've seen you do this.. In fact I tried to jump the wall as well, and it's not that easy, so I may need to practise! If you spend too long trying to get over the wall though, EU can get someone back there with rockets and it's then very hard to attack at that point. Let's keep it secret and not let everyone know..

**PM..** · 03-05-2009, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by pred011586

So the "PAC Wins" message is just there for show?

I'm not sure on this, but it will skip map as that round is considered over once the player count is below the required amount. Example of this, if I log in to my server which starts the round with only 1 player, if I leave, the round ends and next map loads.

**Naith** · 03-05-2009, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by PM07SNV

I've seen you do this.. In fact I tried to jump the wall as well, and it's not that easy, so I may need to practise! If you spend too long trying to get over the wall though, EU can get someone back there with rockets and it's then very hard to attack at that point. Let's keep it secret and not let everyone know..

Haha. Usually there is someone there though. Last time Eroak and some other people were watching the wall, waiting for me. So, there's always the challenge, but half the time they'll realise you fail at jumping it and'll move on.
Anything that'll make a TG game better. :]

Also! You can put a beacon on the outside of the wall at any place (Ruins seems to be the best) and the squaddies may spawn inside the wall. Half the time it fails, so be careful!

**Tigerblitz** · 03-05-2009, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by tinithe

Also! You can put a beacon on the outside of the wall at any place (Ruins seems to be the best) and the squaddies may spawn inside the wall. Half the time it fails, so be careful!

This is no longer legal naith.

Originally Posted by Eroak

Ok,

After some decussion with admins, and revisiting the topic for a 2nd time sparked by Camp G's out of bounds area.

Of course rooftop beacons are not allowed and beacons in water, as are beacons in geometory. These are explotive spawn points that cannot be killed. Sometimes they are placed by accident, most of the time they are not and even rare does anyone here have incident involving them. I'm very happy to say that.

The Camp G out of bounds beacons are going to fall into the same exploitive catagory and not require a new rule. It's very very diffcult to destroy as EU and takes much effort to counter. Thus getting Toll Station, and tracking outside yourself as EU is about the best case. Thus also forcing you to suicide to get back into the action. Grenades/rockets will not work on the entire East and south areas since these areas require other exploits for EU to access. The only effective counter is to keep one squad back hoping people will pod in, this isn't the intended design of beacons.

To be clear, if someone wants to be out of bounds to find a weakpoint or cause distractions, thats fine. Just like rooftops, you my be there, but no beacons may be dropped. Also to be clear, if you pout yourself out of bounds, you find a way back in or sit. You do not suicide. You choose to jump there or spawn there. Deal with it.

Yes beacons in water can be destroyed, but if they are fully submerged, they cannot be seen. This isn't also intended design, as beacons are ment to again, be countered.

The purpose of this thread is to 1, make you aware of how we admins feel about beacons in Camp G, and secondly, that you may report this as an offense: Inaccessible Beacon.

The admins have spoken

**spiff913** · 03-05-2009, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

5. If PAC is up in tickets, should it push in? Why?

I have always wanted to see PAC just fall back and defend Harbor in this scenario. Of course you would have to coordinate the entire team, not just a single squad.

If you <forced> EU to come out into the open, used lots of gadgets like RDX, APMs and sentry guns, you could murder them from the Harbor rooftops.

**Naith** · 03-05-2009, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Tigerblitz

This is no longer legal naith.
The admins have spoken

Sorry... I asked before, but didn't realise this had been corrected. I won't do it again.

**PM..** · 03-06-2009, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by tinithe

Sorry... I asked before, but didn't realise this had been corrected. I won't do it again.

You did this yesterday right? (Not the beacon, but over the wall)

I have to say if you did, you were there pretty quickly! Our whole team was at Harbor, and no matter how fast I ran back, you had Ruins, EU Base and almost Central camp by then. We struggled after that.

**Naith** · 03-06-2009, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by PM07SNV

You did this yesterday right? (Not the beacon, but over the wall)

I have to say if you did, you were there pretty quickly! Our whole team was at Harbor, and no matter how fast I ran back, you had Ruins, EU Base and almost Central camp by then. We struggled after that.

I think I actually buggy'd it yesterday..

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