Zhohar

1. During the Camp Gibraltar standoff at Toll Station, who has the advantage? PAC as the attackers or EU as the defenders? Why?

2. If EU is down tickets, should it push to regain bleed? Why?

3. If PAC is down tickets, should it push in? Why?

4. If EU is up tickets, should it push to regain bleed? Why?

5. If PAC is up in tickets, should it push in? Why?

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I'm more curious than anything, to see the thought process inside other people's heads.

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Pfft, how can you call it suicidal if we lived through it?

DrakenViator

There should never be such a thing as a 'fair fight'

The team that defends typically has the advantage, as they are more apt to get the crucial revives needed. You want the enemy to advance on you and fight you on your terms. Camp G has that nice open area right outside of Toll, this open spot creates a killing ground. The only question is who is standing in the ground and who is overlooking it and firing...

~ Draken

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Lyramion

imo PAC has an advantage being outside. The space is much bigger and you can revive and spread out more easy. EU is all crammed together into toll. Can get camped with rockets easy.

For the EU side I think when they down tickets they actually should fall back into central to avoid the toll standoff.


If EU wants to push in a single Squad sill 95% fail. The best would be a coordinated push on the left and right catwalk together with one squad in the middle.

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pred011586

PAC as the attackers. EU is under constant threat of a co-ordinated forced entry. PAC can utilize both buggies, having the first drive in to clear mines, with the second one not far behind. If the walker is blocking the exit with it's girth, an emp/orbital will either kill it or force it to move. PAC only has to keep their eyes in front of them, while EU has to keep their eyes all over. If PAC does somehow lose Harbor, they should be able to regain it back quickly, or push in to Toll and take it out, depending on how many EU soldiers spawn at Harbor. EU doesn't have that same luxury of a choice.

No, assaulting costs tickets. Running out into no man's land, even if you push your entire team out, will cost you alot of tickets. If you're down on tickets this is just going to cost you more tickets, along with taking the risk of a PAC counter rush to take Toll. What good is Harbor if you just gave PAC Toll? Risk/Reward says it's a no-go.

EDIT: Besides, if EU lost Harbor in the first place, who's to say they're not just going to lose it again. Is having ticket bleed for such a short time really worth the ticket cost of the assault?

Depends. If this situation arises near the end of the game, and this is a theoretical situation, then it's better to fall back and draw EU out of their hole. EU can not win by staying camped in Toll. The only tickets they can gain is by unrevived deaths. If this is near the beginning of the game, then a co-ordinated strike like what I mentioned in my first answer would be ideal. Have 1 SL in the first buggy, 2 in the 2nd. Have everyone else storm the Toll flag. Hopefully one of the two buggies gets past, and the SMs that die on the rush of Toll can spawn on their SL. If none of the SMs die, that means they should get Toll. If all the buggied SLs are stopped, and all the SMs are killed, then resort to falling back from the Toll wall, and draw them out until you can catch up on tickets.

No, PAC has to come to you in order to win. Use those tickets as a buffer in case you miss a revive here and there.

Depends on the amount of ticket lead. If you have a substantial ticket lead, then pressure them until the tickets even out then fall back.



EDIT2: Of course, the answer to all of these is "yes" if the CO sees a glaring tactical weakness in the formation of the other side. Like if EU's only defending the right side, then PAC should definately do a full rush on the left side.

The reason Toll/Harbor standoffs end is because PAC gets a back flag, PAC rushes Toll with all it's got, or someone makes a tactical error and brings a whole squad in rambo style causing their team to lose tickets. In an ideal situation, with two entire teams that are aware of tickets, and ticket blee, the loser will be whoever is the first to get bored/lazy.

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Axis_Sniper

The guy with the cooler hair, obviously. It's simple.

Oh yeah, I like these threads, it gives people a chance for them to show their strategies and opinions on matters.

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FROM THE PRIMER:
Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine, regardless of the level of advantage, if any, it gives over the opposing team.

Xbox Live GT: KrunchMastaFlex

Wave

I would say that the tickets almost never play a part in whether or not you should push as PAC. I think its generally assumed that Toll Station is much easier for EU to hold than Harbor, and they incur less causualties at Toll, so EU choosing not to push is simple for me.

However, with PAC, I say they should try a push once or twice. See how they go, and if they both fail, stop pushing. The main mistake that I see PAC make constantly, usually by pubbies, is people getting restless and spreading out in the area by the downed APC instead of grouping behind the cover like they should. Being spread out like this, the random PAC soldiers make easy targets for snipers and vigilante assaults plus rockets and grenades from anyone on the catwalks or behind the wall. When faced with this obstacle, the PAC have no choice but to push to stop their less-than-intelligent teammates from consuming all of the team's tickets.

In general, as long as neither team is bleed, one team will always try and push a choke point and the other will hold. Assuming that both teams are evenly matched with respect to skilled players, the defender has the advantage and will take the ticket lead. If PAC stop pushing on Toll and let the EU come out to them, they can be picked off with ease, as well as killing EU with rockets who sith on the perch or catwalks at the north end of Toll.

I always tell my squads to hold. I wait for an orbital, or for the enemies to be concentrated on the other side, and we make pushes. I never tell them to go for Toll though, as it is far too easily grenaded and rocketed.

PS. I don't hate pubbies, I just think they do ignorant things. They just don't know any better. We must teach them!

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PM07SNV

This is a hard question to answer, as it depends on where EU are defending at Toll. If they sit south of the flag, they have a good advantage, but if they are on the catwalks, or north of the flag, they are easily accessible to PAC frags and rockets, and revives get messy among more and more grenades. I feel both sides have advantages and dissadvantages.

If EU are down tickets after losing Harbour within seconds.. if both teams are playing it safe, then each ticket is very important to hold on to, and you have to hope PAC are a bit slack on their revives. If PAC are waiting outside Toll, they may have more snipers and support, which means less medics. EU should have more medics and fewer support, and doesn't really have a need for snipers, as the only places they are useful is far from where your medics are.

PAC may be throwing tickets at the flag, in which case, simply hold back, and take their tickets. If they are not, then later in the game, it may be worth a push, BUT I'd only really do this if you manage to capture 1 of their Buggies to break past them. And even then, you may be a slight distraction, but you will find it hard to defend, unless you can luckily attack everyone sitting outside Toll from both sides. I've not seen this work on a full server, but half full it works quite nicely.

I think if PAC is down tickets, there comes a time when a cap-out is the only way to win. You will have to make capping a back flag work, but this is not always easy. You could get Toll from under their noses if you push hard with enough players and spread out in the cap radius, but not always..

No. Stay where you are, you have done the hard work, just keep it up.

If you were a commander, you may want to sit tight and enjoy a good chance of winning, with minimal effort, but this could be a bit boring in some peoples eyes, and they will want more flags and a possible cap-out. I think so long as you don't throw tickets away and know when to stop losing, it's worth a try just to make the game more interesting. When you make your move is dependant on when there is a nice opening.

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Spyder228

I'm no commander, but Harbor is a horrible defensive position. Better just to set up a perimeter at Toll right at the start than waste tickets trying to keep Harbor. If anything, leave one (2-3 mand) squad hiding there to recap it once PAC moves on.

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Sargentkyle23

This is hard to answer because there are advantages and disadvantages on both sides. EU has the high ground and a relatively small area to defend. This makes it easier for raining down rockets and nades and the like onto the heads of the PAC fighters. However on the flipside EU has much less room and tighter spaces to make their revives and can lose lots of tickets from lost revives if they are not careful.

PAC has the advantage of lots of space to spread out which makes it easier to stay out of EU fire, also there is quite a bit of debris and other objects to hide behind to stay alive. The large space also makes it easier to revive and not get yourself and the person you revived killed by a nade from the same person that killed the guy you were going to revive in the first place. PAC does however have to fire up into the station and it makes it harder to get the kills without getting a rocket exploding in your face.

I think overall it really depends on the team. It is crucial to have your team organized during theses standoffs and not have people simply running around trying to get kills. On either side that is what loses the tickets and in turn loses you the game.

This is probably the worst thing possible that EU could do. The chances of EU being able to take harbor and hold it as well as the rest of the back bases are slim to none. If you push out you will not only lose tickets 2 or more times faster then if you stay back, but you will be leaving your back flags open for the taking. You will almost definitely lose another flag even if you get harbor and then your situation is worse then when you made the push.

This depends greatly on a number of factors. How organized the EU team is, how far into the game you are, and how many tickets you are down by.

If the EU team is well organized then no. Even if you get through you will lose far to many tickets then you would gain by breaking through taking EU and ruins and moving the standoff to there. If however the EU team leaves a hole in their defense then YES take it and get through to central and the rest of the bases! For the most part they are easier to hold and you will lose less tickets then you would at the toll standoff.

How far into the game you are also makes a huge difference. If you only have 70 tickets left and are down by 20 this is NOT a good time to push as you will lose to many tickets in the push and will not be able to make it up even if you successfully breakthrough.

Another time when you cannot push is when you are down by a significant number of tickets. Just like if it is late in the game breaking through will cost you more then you can make up. At this point I would suggest pulling back and letting EU come to you forcing them to attack which always costs more tickets the defending.

No. I do not think this is EVER a good idea. Like I said before once PAC takes harbor the chances of EU taking it back and being able to hold it are slim to none. Harbor is far to easy a flag to take and even easier to bypass. If EU can hold harbor at the begging of the round that is great!, but if you lose don't try to get it back it will 90/100 times either lose you your ticket lead, lose you one of the back flags which is far worse then not having harbor, or both.

Again this depends greatly on the EU team. If they leave a hole yes by all means take advantage of it. If you can organize your team and feasibly overpower their team without losing your lead by all means do it! However DO NOT blindly attack and continuously send your squad to its death. Always keep the bigger picture in mind or you will quickly find that you are now down 20 tickets where you used to be up 30.

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flik2142

question: if CO causes kill with orbital and they aren't revived, this counts to tickets scored?

whenever I commanded, i'd look to see who was actually playing in the squads on your side. I think a lot of my direction was based on what I thought squads could pull off. With a skilled enough team, the Toll standoff is one you can actually get through without conceeding too many tickets, but getting enough players of zhohar epicness is tough, and when he's on the other side defending toll, I would recommend telling your team to fall back to base and when they push up, go for a backflag.

PM07SNV

I disagree.. You would have a harder job doing it this way. PAC have a 30 ticket advantage at the start of the round. I'd want 1 full squad at Toll mining the road at initial spawn and watching the flag, and 1 squad starting at Toll, but moving towards Hardbour ready to fall back if needed, with everyone else at Harbour defending. The longer you have Harbour, the longer you have bleed on PAC, and those 30 tickets soon even out, and if you have done a good job defending, you should have a ticket advantage. If you lose the flag, your all good to go on defending at Toll with a healthy lead.

Yesterday we had a round with everyone defending at Harbour with Engies covering every possible buggy route, and we held Harbour the whole game. Our squad that started at Toll got bored and joined in at Harbour very early on (At least until tickets were even). Harbour is easy and fun to defend, the problem is not letting PAC sneak past.. A good commander can send a squad to the right place if needed. I think the main reason Harbour is lost so quick normally is because EU is split trying to stop PAC come from North/South, but not so much up the middle. Even if PAC control the roof-tops, they are easily held up there with rockets and grenades, and so long as they are not on the flag, your good.

I managed to clear the flag at Harbour a few times with a sentry gun covering the flag and half the road, throwing grenandes up the road and on the flag, and jumping on the flag with a shotgun.. My Otus let my squad know exactly where they were coming from.

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PM07SNV

*EDIT*

A ticket is lost when a players body becomes unrevivable. (Thanks to Pred for informing me that I was wrong on this)

I always thought if you have died and spawned in, you cost your team a ticket regardless of how you were killed. That's why a revive cancels out the need to be back in the game by having to spawn.

I also thought that if you were to not spawn in, you could save your team a ticket, which still happens sometimes at the end of very close rounds.. I've told my squad to not spawn in when the game is very close, but it turns out we have lost the ticket after failing to revive anyway.

Also:

I guess this is also why you will lose a ticket when someone is disconnected from the server.. (How did I not think of this before??)

And also why deaths in vehicles is not only an instant death for the team, but instant ticket as well!

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Sargentkyle23

That right there is the truth!

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Lorax74

The team that I'm not on.

If I am on PAC, I am going to keep trying to break through. I understand the desire to win, but I don't enjoy the standoff. I love squad leaders that take risks and go for the cap out rather than just digging in for the long haul.

If I'm EU, than I would agree with Lyra, PAC has more room and flexibility. If they can get the ticket lead early, they can send rockets into Toll Station from many more angles than EU can send them back from.

Should EU push out from Toll? Not if PAC is constantly attempting to push in. But if PAC is standing still and just digs in, then sure, why not attempt it every now and then, especially if a few PAC SLs are silly enough to use beacons.

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oniell121

I agree with lorax. The pushes we normally think of, are a big stand off. I'm a fan of being an SL, going...*shudder* recon, cloaking, and running though. I die many more times than I get though, however, if only I go and my squad actually holds their spawn, then I can get to a back flag and only risk one ticket. Taking a risk when only 1 ticket is at stake is an OK risk to me. If there are still a couple squads keeping the rockets coming towards toll while one or 2 squads are "pushing", then I think there is precedent for pushing as PAC.

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