Re: The importance of Recon

**Reaperassault** · 01-21-2008, 06:48 PM

The only time I can even imagine a sniper in my squad is

a) when guardian (or others who play his style of sniper, see his posts to get the idea) beg me to play sniper

b) when I play recon/infiltrator as SL on Berlin, and that is with the Lambert (which is a glorified SMG) and cloak/decoy

I find the sniper kit to lack teamwork and I would truly rather have someone run around with a defib out the entire time and get no kills just to keep the squad going rather than getting 30 kills that didn't make the other team lose a single ticket or help our team take a single flag.

just my opinion

**Arithea** · 01-21-2008, 07:03 PM

My two cents:

I have asked for recon support in a squad (beyond Guardianx11x) once in my entire time SLing on the TG server. That was on Camp Gibraltar, where the meatgrinder was set up just outside of Toll Station and the PAC team (my team) had Harbor. The bleed was off, and most of our teammates were throwing themselves like lemmings into the rocket volleys of the EU team, which meant there was little to no cover for the higher walkways. So I kept my support kit and asked two or three people to come in as recon in order to keep the walkways clear. However, once the battle situation changed and we were back on the ground, they were right back to assault kits and defibs.

I think recon definitely has a place on the TG servers. However, it is very easy to find yourself outside the support of your squad while sniping.

**Basic1** · 01-21-2008, 07:06 PM

i personally find that within a squad, if called for, a sniper can be a valuable asset to cover you from behind and pick of hiding targets, or just to lay low and spot..

**Guardianx11x** · 01-21-2008, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Basic1

....or just to lay low and spot..

Thats is the fastest way to make yourself useless....do we REALLY need an spotter in the world of Otus, IDS, and UAV? The answer kids is no, no we dont.

**Zhohar** · 01-21-2008, 10:42 PM

Fourty five thousand years of dying and baby making says that adrenaline keeps you alive in life and death situations.

Consider that when you sit up on a perch waiting for kills "patiently", lying prone "patiently", and getting headshots in a squad of six medics, "patiently".

**Bagheera** · 01-22-2008, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by SithJedi

You won't be able to do that with me. I hardly ever die as a recon soldier and they always try to get until their head falls to the ground. I always wait paiently to make a good shot. When I am spec-ops, I like placing traps at flags. Several rounds, I will place rdx around stragetic flags and accompany my squad leader as he moves to the next objective. If hat flag falls, I immediately switch to my detonaer and frequently kills upwards to 4 soldiers.

Comon guys you have seen how good I am at recon

Sorry, but in the time you're waiting patiently, for every one kill, there's a combat medic doing 2-3 kills, or a squad recon/sniper doing 5-6, plus he's long range spotting while moving with his squad. Campers are useless except in stalemates. Even I don't use a sniper kit 100% of the time, and the guys I play regularly with on the West Coast request that I use a sniper kit most of the time, dependent on the map and battle situation.

Originally Posted by Guardianx11x

I think that is the sort of mentality snipers need to avoid. Waiting patiently for a good shot is stupid. Snipers can't hide in 2142 effectivly, so if you are waiting and not getting killed.....its cause you are doing so poorly that nobody cares about you. My style is Run 'n Gun, quick imperfect shots. This allows me to move with my squad. Honestly, after all the time I've spent with sniping in 2142 this is the best solution. Even I sometimes doubt my own effectiveness...

I haven't seen you. However you should talk to the people who SL at TG often. As far as I know, I'm the only player they request to play sniper in game (in fact I've been told this)....maybe that means I'm doing something right. What it also means is that they recognize the the role can be useful...however it is widely abused and glorified by people who delude themselves into thinking they are doing a good job. If you find yourself prone for more than 30 sec. you are not doing your team any good.

I agree. Unless the regular group of people you play with are actually requesting you to play sniper in their squads, try asking them first. If they're not sure, then give them a choice, depending on the situation. Usually a conversation goes something like this;

Choice of Medic/Support = Most of the time it's Medic with Baur (they know I can sharpshoot with a Baur when necessary, plus I love toting my shotty.)
Choice of Sniper/Support = Usually sniper, because the SL is usually support
Choice of Sniper/Medic = Usually sniper, because they know I know what to do. 10% of the time, it's Medic, and I'll do what's mentioned above as far as Medics go.
I go Support or Engineer when necessary.

By the way, Engineers can snipe too! However, they snipe vehicles.

If you're really good, you can down a tank or troop transport when it's barely a shape on the horizon, especially with the guided rockets. Tampa is a wonderful map for this, and great for nailing those tanks shelling your positions from afar.

The main point is, go with what helps your team, and not your ego. I choose the kit that helps my team, period.

**Consciousness** · 01-22-2008, 01:59 PM

This whole line of reasoning about sniper uselessness hinges on the assumption that the sniper is immobile. With all of the toys that a sniper can have at his disposal, it actually makes for a very tough nut to crack if he is moving with the squad. APMs around the squad attempting to get a flag, throwing RDX over the wall or from a second story position onto the enemy can be devastating, and body shot/pistol kill can also be used and be just as fast and effective as killing a dude with a machine gun. It takes a bit more skill, but don't completely disregard the sniper class as a viable member of a squad.

**Reaperassault** · 01-22-2008, 02:11 PM

I submit this challenge to all snipers.

ask for an invite into my squad and show me all these wonderful things in game on the conquest server. show me your magic teamwork and devastation of entire squad and inability to die from 3 medics shooting rockets then I will accept a sniper as useful in the TG conquest server.

I doubt this will ever happen but I want people to prove me wrong.

**Guardianx11x** · 01-22-2008, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Consciousness

This whole line of reasoning about sniper uselessness hinges on the assumption that the sniper is immobile. With all of the toys that a sniper can have at his disposal, it actually makes for a very tough nut to crack if he is moving with the squad. APMs around the squad attempting to get a flag, throwing RDX over the wall or from a second story position onto the enemy can be devastating, and body shot/pistol kill can also be used and be just as fast and effective as killing a dude with a machine gun. It takes a bit more skill, but don't completely disregard the sniper class as a viable member of a squad.

A few things:

1) I've been saying that a sniper is ONLY useful if he is moving with a squad.
2) Nuts are delicious, that is why we take the time to crack them.
3) A SNIPER CANNOT BE JUST AS FAST AND EFFECTIVE AT KILLING IN CQC THAN A GUY WITH A MACHINE GUN!!!!!

That is just freaking crazy talk. I mean, we've all had our lucky breaks against a crappy assault guy...but honestly, if you're the assault guy. How ofter you killed in CQC by sniper? and WHY DO SNIPERS CONTINUE TO DELUDE THEMSELVES! I just really don't understand some of the posts in here. I mean, how can you guys claim that you get 80%-90% accuracy and headshot reviving medics most of the time, or can hang with assaults in CQC. You can't do either! Is it your fault? No, its the game. The advantage is just simply not on your side, so if you both are equally skilled...the non-sniper wins. Please, consider this when you post. On TG you are not against some unthinking pubbie wandering around lost. You are against an organized unit of experienced players! There needs to be a **TACTICAL ADVANTAGE** or you will not win consistantly. It is very tricky to create this advantage with the sniper role.

As you were........

If your really feel that you are right, send me a PM and we will go sniping together. Like Reaper I want to see some of you highly skilled snipers snacking on some dollar bills.

**Tarenth** · 01-22-2008, 05:21 PM

I think people need to take a few steps back and re-read what's being written before they start an arguement with themselves.

Fact: Lone wolf snipers are ineffective in the teamplay environment due to the presences of medics willing to revive on the field. If you're on a PUB server where everyone is a support toting a LMG and is confused what the ammo box is for, then a sniper is effective. If you're on a TG server where every other person is a medic with defibs primed and ready or your CO/SL will be breathing down your neck asking why not, then the 'lol I made a kill" mindset is useless for the team because you've just wasted your time accomplishing nothing. No ticket is lost and while you're patiently waiting for your next shot you're not contributing to your team's success.

Fact: Combat marksmen, Stealth Recon, and Recon Explosive experts are valid contributors to teamplay due to their position ALWAYS with the squad. They are revived by their squad and they fight with their squad without lonewolfing. If they're ordered to sabotage/destroy something then the squad is also there to back them up.

Conciousness, you need to go back and reread all the arguements for/against snipers. What you are saying are valid recon roles have already been covered because they are NOT sniper actions. They are marksman/recon actions which contribute to teamplay. However in many of those cases you can bring a Lambert along and be more effective than if you used the Zeller/stock rifle.

Also ending an arguement with "Because I'm a sniping god" isn't a very good way to end the arguement. You can get a 90% accuracy rating because you're a sniping god who can pick medics off the field in the 2 seconds before the revive without having to chamber a new round? Um...sure...right. Guardian can get a 50% accuracy rating as a combat marksman contributing to squad effort? Sweet!

If you want to turn the arguement on its side and take a different perspective its like two support players arguing over proper use of the Ganz HMG. One says they're better with it because they have a 50% accuracy rating while attacking and the other says they take an overwatch role and have a 20% accuracy rating as they lay suppressive fire while their squad closes for the kill.

Personally I like the guy with the 20% accuracy rating giving suppressive fire for me better.

**Bagheera** · 01-23-2008, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by Reaperassault

I submit this challenge to all snipers.

ask for an invite into my squad and show me all these wonderful things in game on the conquest server. show me your magic teamwork and devastation of entire squad and inability to die from 3 medics shooting rockets then I will accept a sniper as useful in the TG conquest server.

I doubt this will ever happen but I want people to prove me wrong.

You show me a single assault guy that can down an entire squad and survive 3 medics shooting rockets, and I'll show you a sniper, engy, or support who can do the same. Point is, they don't exist, so relax, these "snipers" who post about their leetness really can't survive any of this or do any of this, any more than you can as a solo assault medic.

Let's face it, it's really not the class, but the player. However, some classes such as assault medic are a helluva lot easier to master than others, and have a lower learning curve in being useful to a squad. In my opinion, recon, and especially sniper, has the steepest learning curve, and only a very rare few have mastered that curve to be useful to a squad. Squad, that thing with multiple players, that single entity that is actually capable of taking out a squad, and surviving a rocket barrage.

I'll be honest, I'm not all that great with the support (it's my worst kit), as I can't get the hang of the HMGs, but at least I do better with the HMG than the LMG. Second worst for me is the engineer. I've played with other players who are engineer gods, who always make their anti-armor shots, have a knack for placing MM's at just the right spot, I tip my hat to them.

Squadding wise, I find my best kits to be either a Baur toting medic, or a basic sniper rifle wielding recon with explosives. How does a sniper do well in those nasty rocket barrages? By sticking with his squad, and headshotting those rocket barraging medics on the other team. I can guarantee that a headshot lands faster than a single rocket, sometimes before they've even had the chance to pull the trigger. When a bead is drawn at the same time by both players, a good sniper will take out the medic, and live through the rockets splash damage. Revives? While the sniper lives and is getting healed, his medic buddies are healing him and dishing out rockets, meanwhile the sniper is keeping heads down or blowing them off in those long range stand-offs, which just incidentally happen to be the sniper's specialty. If the sniper gets blown to bits, guess what? He can get revives, same as the other team. When I expect a lot of CQB, I go Baur + Shotty and tear it up with my squad, knowing I can cover their backs while they're reloading, because in those situations I like to get real up close and personal.

I think there's confusion between the "l33t" "snipers", and the team players who happen to use the recon kit to the squads advantage, and use another kit when it's more appropriate to the situation based on their style of play. Granted, it's easy to confuse the 95% of those who only think they're good with the kit with the 5% or less who actually ARE good with the kit. Just please don't sell short those who are true recon players, simply because they play the recon kit. Recon play is more than the kit, it's the mindset, and the "l33t" players don't have it. They've just watched one too many movies about snipers.

**Xen** · 01-23-2008, 08:18 AM

As someone that plays recon on a regular basis, and as SL. It's very rare that my squad, TG Xen, is not in the top 3 squads on TG servers and I only have random pubies in my squad usually. I'm assualting flags, I'm defending flags, all right there with my squad. I don't know how many times I've rushed on a flag dropping APM's in the midst of the enemy and have my squad roll in behind me. Then to watch, as the enemy squad get's blown up cause they have to quickly dive for cover to avoid my squads fire. Now of course everyone is going to point out that points and whatnot have no bearing. I think they do, you don't get SL sussess points by being a lone wolf, and your squad isn't in the top 3 by not caping flag or not following orders. So odviously, me as a recon, must be doing something right with the kit. I've watched more people run for cover when a sniper fires and misses them. Stopping whatever "rush" to the next flag they were planning. I've watched an entire squad of medics start rocket spamming in all directions looking for a recon that is defending the next flag over and never killing him. To simply assume that the game makes Recon untactical is just bais arguments against it. Just the longer enemy tracking ability alone helps the entire squad tactically. Much more then a bunch of medics running around spamming rockets, which is fine if all your doing is deathmatch ticket bleeding. It takes alot more tactics to stay alive as a recon and requires much more teamwork as well. To me, if you need 5 medics to keep each other alive, maybe you need to rethink what your calling tactical. To me, it's plain stupid to have 4 guys go down just because the SL goes down in an enemies field of fire. This whole argument that recon loses one ticket when he dies is reason enough to not have any in the squad. Yet I've watched entire medic squads go down. That's 6 tickets to 1 ticket. I don't know how many times I've had to call off, on myself or a team member, a revive cause it would have gotten my medic killed as well. Those sort of calls saves tickets, not pointing at another kit and saying they are losing the tickets so it must be bad. Theoretically a medic should never die, they can find cover and heal themselves. That is the job of a Medic, keeping other people fighting. I don't know how many times I've watched a medic completely ignore someone that dies right next to him cause he's rocket spamming, then to see him to revive his own squad member when he goes down.

I appolgize now for the tone of this. I really enjoy playing 2142, it's an enjoyable break from modern reality based FPS's. I worry about the TG community as a whole, when I see comments like I exclude them, I force them to change, or I kick them are used, about 25% of a game. You are basically telling everyone that want's to join our community, if your a sniper or Specop type of player, go somewhere else cause we don't want your kind here. Maybe instead of ney saying and down right trashing a class, start figuring out how to use it in your squad. Maybe that's the real problem here, because they seem so lacking, you can't think of how to incorperate them in the rocket spamfest. I say it's poor tactics to not have in your squad, the ability to reach out and touch someone, or spot much farther then any other class on the field, or lay an RDx ambush, or an APM defense.

**MDFubar** · 01-23-2008, 08:45 AM

Well put Xen, but I think what you are not getting from this is that many SL's don't feel that it will work in thier squad and don't want someone trying to justify it. If I want a recon in my squad, I will ask for one with a specific goal in mind. If I am rushing flags, I don't mind having one recon with a Lambert, RDX, and APM. Defending certain points, a sniper can be effective if they are truly good at it. Most of the Sl's seem to be moving around and end up in CQC and would prefer a kit that would suit that situation.
The challenge has been put out by two members so far, to prove them wrong and judtify the stances taken.
I think the biggest problme is when you spell out what kits you want and someone comes in with, in this case a sniper, a different kit and it truly negates the formation.

**Xen** · 01-23-2008, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by MDFubar

I think the biggest problme is when you spell out what kits you want and someone comes in with, in this case a sniper, a different kit and it truly negates the formation.

Honestly, if your going to be dictating squad load outs, lock the squad and invite. There's plenty of time before the map starts to say hey I need x# of medics in chat, and see who want's to play medics. And if you have specific players in mind you can invite them directly. As a SL. leaving the squad unlocked requires you to modify your plan to suit the talents of the random members that join. Just my veiw on that really I guess.

**Razcsak** · 01-23-2008, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Bagheera

You show me a single assault guy that can down an entire squad and survive 3 medics shooting rockets, and I'll show you a sniper, engy, or support who can do the same.

Azura, Reaper, Lyramion, and Crux, to name several.

Recon play is more than the kit, it's the mindset, and the "l33t" players don't have it. They've just watched one too many movies about snipers.

I think its more the way the game mechanics work. Snipers would be far more useful to the squad if there were fewer medics running around. The obvious answer would be to split the medic and assault trees, but since that didn't happen, we're left with a class that is typically only useful in extraordinarily skilled hands or in unusual circumstances.

I say it's poor tactics to not have in your squad, the ability to reach out and touch someone, or spot much farther then any other class on the field, or lay an RDx ambush, or an APM defense.

Sniping doesn't do that much. RDX and APMs? They can slow down a squad, which is important. When someone is rushing on Gib, APMs on the catwalks can kill the entire squad. Not by the blast, but by slowing the squad for a split second.

I don't think that people are saying snipers are useless, its that assaults seem to do most things better. They're better in cqc and medium range, they heal, they revive, and they have rockets.

Thread Tools

Display