How a Sniper helps a Squad - Page 16

**MDFubar** · 01-23-2008, 09:40 AM

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Originally Posted by Xen

Honestly, if your going to be dictating squad load outs, lock the squad and invite. There's plenty of time before the map starts to say hey I need x# of medics in chat, and see who want's to play medics. And if you have specific players in mind you can invite them directly. As a SL. leaving the squad unlocked requires you to modify your plan to suit the talents of the random members that join. Just my veiw on that really I guess.

The point of squad leading is to be the leader, set the pace, tempo, load-out, and goals for the squad. Not to see who shows up and what they want to play, then make a plan.
I have had people leave the squad because they don't like the load-outs, they are simply replaced with people who will follow orders and are looking for someone to lead.

You don't really show up for battle and tell the CO that this is the weapon you will use, so make plans around me. Do you?

**Xen** · 01-23-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDFubar

You don't really show up for battle and tell the CO that this is the weapon you will use, so make plans around me. Do you?

Well actually they test you out on many things and hand you what your best at, and then tell you to go with that CO that know's how to use you, but anyways.

**Reaperassault** · 01-23-2008, 12:51 PM

here we go

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It's very rare that my squad, TG Xen, is not in the top 3 squads on TG servers and I only have random pubies in my squad usually

you should know TG isn't about points and that isn't how we should rate players and their talents

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you don't get SL sussess points by being a lone wolf, and your squad isn't in the top 3 by not caping flag or not following orders

but you do get SL points by having your squad perform actions inside the order area, regardless of your position as SL. and yes you are doing something right with the kit but a pub with a defib can do more or the same.

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To simply assume that the game makes Recon untactical is just bias arguments against it

I have not assumed recon are untactical, they do however lack good options for teamwork in the most common cases.

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Just the longer enemy tracking ability alone helps the entire squad tactically.

yes it does, even more so when there is an Otus out (all the diamonds become mini map dots, which is awesome, other than that they are static).

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Much more then a bunch of medics running around spamming rockets, which is fine if all your doing is deathmatch ticket bleeding.

now would this be true spam (untargeted attacks) or just rockets in mass volume? We are playing Conquest not deathmatch, bleeding tickets by holding flags happens to be the most effective way of winning not kills with any weapon (unless you can kill 200-300 people with a pilum)

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To me, if you need 5 medics to keep each other alive, maybe you need to rethink what your calling tactical.

I need one medic to keep us alive I just like to have some back up that have some of the best weapons in the game. I usually run about 4 medics but will have more if necessary depending on how difficult a situation I plan on getting my guys into

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To me, it's plain stupid to have 4 guys go down just because the SL goes down in an enemies field of fire.

that is just a poor decision on the SL's part to go down an make the medics revive in that kind of situation. I do not condone revives in every situation that is just a bad idea.

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Yet I've watched entire medic squads go down.

so have we all. that happens when mistakes are made on several people's behalf.

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I've watched a medic completely ignore someone that dies right next to him cause he's rocket spamming, then to see him to revive his own squad member when he goes down.

maybe those two don't know how to communicate correctly to let them know the other is down, additionally the assault medic could be clearing the area to make the revive safer.

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I worry about the TG community as a whole, when I see comments like I exclude them, I force them to change, or I kick them are used, about 25% of a game. You are basically telling everyone that want's to join our community, if your a sniper or Specop type of player, go somewhere else cause we don't want your kind here.

when has this been said? I believe all that has been posted is that in general the sniper kit lacks in the teamwork area.

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I say it's poor tactics to not have in your squad, the ability to reach out and touch someone, or spot much farther then any other class on the field, or lay an RDx ambush, or an APM defense.

I'd say its poor tactics to assume you need a sniper, as they are very specialized in what they can do, but if you can find a player with the correct mind set and skill a recon/sniper will work great. its just hard to come by on the TG conquest server. as for spotting its kind of true but important information should be coming from the CO (since that position has the best tools to do the job). I love a good RDX'n, but sadly this is also a very hard thing to do correctly, especially when your team is not paying attention. I tried for myself one day on camp g, as a PAC recon I had RDXd Toll Station and killed Crux and Birdman but their squad's medics came in a revived both of them while I was helpless as I watched the flag go neutral. It was great fun to see Crux's body fly in the air for a little bit but in the end those two kills did nothing more than delay a flag cap for 15 seconds.

**Lyramion** · 01-23-2008, 01:34 PM

To wrap up my prevorious toughts in a Recon topic:

Headshot Sniper = untactical
Bodyshot Sniper = tactical

You want to wound and pin down an enemy squad so your team can kill them more easy as a whole. just going for headshots just ends up in revives. 3 wounded guys in an enemy squad are more "valuable" than 1 dead.

Augustus Gloop · 01-23-2008, 01:49 PM

In my opinion, making recon useful will require a change in the class. Either sniper headshots need to be kills, not critical wounds,

OR

the sniper camo needs to extend around them a short distance (enough to hide one or two more people) when they're not moving, and have the attributes of the ghost to remove radar dots for everyone in the radius.

If these changes were made to the class, I would invite a recon in to my squad a lot more often.

Bagheera · 01-23-2008, 01:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Razcsak

Azura, Reaper, Lyramion, and Crux, to name several.

Not to downplay their skills, as I've played with some of them on occasion, but you're telling me that any ONE of them can take out an entire squad with a single clip?

You're also telling me they can survive 9+ rockets in a single volley?

Are they William Wallace???

"If the real William Wallace were here he'd kill the British with bolts of fire from his eyes and lightning from his arse! I am William Wallace!"

Honestly, this is getting a bit ridiculous. There are good players who are better at one thing than another, and most players are best at the assault/medic kit, because it has the easiest tools to use. There are a minority of players who are excellent with the recon kit, but they are in the minority to the overwhelming majority of players who are horrible with it and make the minority look bad in general.

**Arithea** · 01-23-2008, 01:56 PM

I think the overall points that are being made against using recon kits in squads come down to the fact that, while they are not the be-all, end-all of uselessness, they don't fit well into the mindset cultivated at TG. There are four kits available to you in Battlefield 2142. One of them is bound to be the least useful. In 2142, it's recon. That doesn't mean it's not useful at all; it just means that it's a circumstantially useful kit, much like the engineer kit.

Also, I think people tend to get very focused into their favorite kits. I, for one, really enjoy playing the engineer kit--it's the first one I unlocked. However, you'll often see me toting a shotgun or Voss, especially when squad leading, since I've been trying to broaden my horizons and make myself a more effective squad and team member, overall.

nuckj · 01-23-2008, 04:14 PM

And also..most SL's feel that the benefits of having a sniper/recon are outweighed by having that extra medic in the squad. Staying alive is the most important goal of any squad. You cannot accomplish your objective if you are all dead. So one more person that can revive is preferred over anything that the recon/sniper can provide to the squad. People are not saying that the recon/sniper class is useless, just that it's not as useful as another class (ie medic). Due to the extreme teamwork focus of this server, recon/sniper has the smallest role on the battlefield.

Cpt.Pierce · 01-23-2008, 04:57 PM

Lyramion sums up my beliefs as well. However, I would like to add to that.
3 Wounded guys>1 dead guy
But, 2 wounded guys, 2 unharmed guys called out over VOIP (as to their location), and possibly a dead guy who threatened an unknowing squadmate, are even better than that. The sniper should first call out the location of the enemies, then go for a high body shot (an easy-to-aim-at target that occasionally results in an accidental headshot) on the man he called out. This seems to work especially well in maps like Tunis, where the sniper can be concealed well and still within range of a medic, while viewing at least one outpost and several chokepoints, including the majority of the hiding/ambush spots and entry points to any given outpost.

Adding to that, in a situation like the initial EU assault on Bridge at Remagen (32 player map), a sniper can be extremely effective when assaulting and never firing a shot. It may cost the squad one man, but it is a man not likely to result in a ticket loss (due to the isolation of the home base and numerous concealed firing positions). The sniper can watch the squad as they advance, then tell them the opportune time to invade. Normally, the squad might travel up the ladder not knowing what is on the other end. Now, they know if there is an enemy near the top, or preparing to look over (in which case the sniper should eliminate the enemy quickly). It is also a case where a headshot is not tactical. It is a minimum of a 200 meter shot, sometimes (correct me if I'm wrong) out to as far as 270. A fair sniper can hit maybe 1 in 2 or 3 headshots, on a still enemy and under time pressure with no Gruber, at that range, and far fewer if the target is moving (which is likely).

A headshot is difficult, even if you are so good it is only a matter of taking the time to line it up (believe me, I am not). A body shot, however, can be achieved with much greater consistency, and with a squad of teammates moving quickly up, the sniper will have no doubt that the kill will be claimed. Not to mention it takes the defenders' minds off the immediate threat (your squad) and puts it onto you. Or they ignore you and continue to feel the wrath of 79-65 damage per shot and a one shot kill for their assaulters.

That's my $30.06

Guardianx11x · 01-23-2008, 06:05 PM

Both Lyra and Cpt. Pierce are wong. It sounds nice, because it is true that healing takes longer than a revive, and it makes sense that it is useful. In practice though it just doesnt work. I toy with this from time to time. It is flawed for two reasons:

1) When I shoot for body shots, and just for headshots, my accuracy remains about the same. Maybe this is different for other people, but I doubt it. It also go for the same types of shots...moving, running, bunny hoppers....so the reason isn't target selection. I suggest some of you try this out, you'll fine that shooting just for faces wont drop your accuracy more than 5-10%.

2) If you shoot someone in the body, they heal...the idea is that during this time your people in your squad will run up and kill an injured soldier. Well...it works if you time it right. Then again, I've found that if I kill someone right before my team engages them...its just one less person to worry about. Notice that the timing factors are the same, its just is one case you have an injured guy, and in the other...a dead one.

Also, its much more effective to hit the one shot kill when a squad is running from cover to cover. Just shoot the last guy, usually more then one of their squadmates turn around and try to come back for him. It leaves them out in the open, and often times results in all of them being killed. When I play with guys from the 3rd, they recognize this situation and put rockets on the dead guy...where before they had no chance of killing any of the enemy squad at that range, now 2-3 of them are down and not getting revived.

Bagheera · 01-23-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardianx11x

Both Lyra and Cpt. Pierce are wong. It sounds nice, because it is true that healing takes longer than a revive, and it makes sense that it is useful. In practice though it just doesnt work. I toy with this from time to time. It is flawed for two reasons:

1) When I shoot for body shots, and just for headshots, my accuracy remains about the same. Maybe this is different for other people, but I doubt it. It also go for the same types of shots...moving, running, bunny hoppers....so the reason isn't target selection. I suggest some of you try this out, you'll fine that shooting just for faces wont drop your accuracy more than 5-10%.

2) If you shoot someone in the body, they heal...the idea is that during this time your people in your squad will run up and kill an injured soldier. Well...it works if you time it right. Then again, I've found that if I kill someone right before my team engages them...its just one less person to worry about. Notice that the timing factors are the same, its just is one case you have an injured guy, and in the other...a dead one.

Also, its much more effective to hit the one shot kill when a squad is running from cover to cover. Just shoot the last guy, usually more then one of their squadmates turn around and try to come back for him. It leaves them out in the open, and often times results in all of them being killed. When I play with guys from the 3rd, they recognize this situation and put rockets on the dead guy...where before they had no chance of killing any of the enemy squad at that range, now 2-3 of them are down and not getting revived.

Guardian summed this up nicely. I'd like to add this; Most of the time when I'm shooting at an enemy squad, I'm not picking off people at random. I'm typically engaging the enemy before my squad does, so that when my squad does engage, after I've spent a clip, there are 1-2 dead guys, and 2-3 more injured guys. By the time your clip is reloaded, they're engaged, and you either finish off people, or save your squaddies from getting killed. They never notice it, because you're not in their face, but you're saving lives by taking enemy ones. I can't count how many times I'll see the remnant of a squad round a corner, drop to one knee and scope on my guys, then they go down due to a headshot from me, saving my buddies. By the same token, when I go down, there is a happy revive for me, or someone covering my back to make sure it doesn't happen at all. This is squadplay. The tactics Guardian and I are advocating fall more under the realm of designated marksman, and less Beringer.

nuckj · 01-23-2008, 06:14 PM

Very good points Guardian. It's obvious why you sport the ribbons that you do.

Cpt.Pierce · 01-23-2008, 06:46 PM

Well, Guardian and I talked in game and he makes a convincing case. I would like to clarify what I was saying--The body shot is better in some extremely situational cases. The example I made with Remagen is one, where the long range shot is the only one you'll get at first (of course, Remagen is a NS map, so we won't see much of it) Another uncommon circumstance is Sidi titan, where there are several areas you can set up unnoticed for some long range shooting, and that allow you to keep an eye on multiple silos. In this case, the long range, usually quicker body shot is useful because it still allows your squad to move in for the kill, and more importantly allows you to defend multiple silos to a moderate degree on a very large map.

As I said, Guardian makes a good case. I retract anything anyone interpreted as meaning the body shot is superior. It sometimes (in fairly rare, map or situational specific cases) comes in use (or when your ping is 500+ you could go with it for a while, or just lead your target by 20 meters/ 2 seconds or so haha)

By situational, I will provide an example that occurred in the very match we had this conversation. Near monorail, an EU soldier drove a FAV up and jumped into the more concealed gunner's seat. Guardian hit the man center body (due to his lack of a good angle) and I finished him with the Baur in 1 hit (3 shots though, my ping wasn't the greatest either).

Basically then, I suppose my best summary is no sniper should shoot exclusively for the head. To be effective to his squad, he should be able to cover where ever they go, shoot for the kill whenever he can, and when circumstances do not permit, shoot his enemy in the gut and let his squad finish him off (this works best in a situation where the enemy cannot heal easily).

**Tarenth** · 01-23-2008, 09:05 PM

Several other points to consider as well.

First off the 'long range overwatch' is redundant if you have a competant CO who pounds their SatTrack and informs SLs of encroaching enemy movements. By the time you've spotted someone with your scope, the CO has seen them, marked them, informed all important parties, drawn doodles over their command map, and possibly dropped an orbital strike on their heads.

When it comes to fire superiority then 3 wounded guys means 3 wounded guys whereas 1 dead guy means 1 dead guy. If taken as a whole picture then 3 wounded soldiers in a squad means 6 guns whereas 1 dead soldier in a squad means 4 guns, 1 debif, and 1 dead. A bodyshot is better than no shot, but a headshot is far better than a bodyshot.

Pegging the vanguard of an advance/retreat is always a great idea as a sniper and Guardian hit it right on the head with his post. However, that's also why the last person generally runs with a med-kit out instead of their gun. Body shots can quickly be healed over to a noncritical state with both the Zeller and Stock rifles before the next round is chambered and if they call the fire then people ahead can turn and provide suppressing fire. Also, running with your med-kit out is good in the vanguard because you'll also heal people ahead of you as you run up if they've engaged the enemy or if they've stopped to provide cover.

**Xen** · 01-23-2008, 10:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Arithea

I think the overall points that are being made against using recon kits in squads come down to the fact that, while they are not the be-all, end-all of uselessness, they don't fit well into the mindset cultivated at TG.

Is it TG or 2142-TG mindset? Cause overall, in most of the other game forums, there's alot of talk about how effective having recon/sniper/specops is or was in this AAR or that campain. In the end, they don't fit well with your mindset, not the communities.