Re: The importance of Recon

**Razcsak** · 01-24-2008, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

Yes, a sniper can get 6 kills with 1 clip.

Unless you bring explosive barrels into the question, I really, really don't see how.

**SithJedi** · 01-24-2008, 07:21 PM

Yes, you can say all you want about Recon. However, let me say this: "the eyes beat the gun". Generally in 2142, knowing where the enemy is crucial, all the other classes do not excell at this due to their limited scopes. A recon on the other hand not only has a good scope to scan an area but can prolong the target aquistation signatures on nebat longer and they also move giving the squad more awareness.

The problem is: Do people care more about playing the game for points or using real-world tactics to win and feel accomplished?

**Crux** · 01-24-2008, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Bagheera

Again, we're looking at a solo sniper vs. a full squad. How effective is a solo assault vs. a full squad? Not very, unless it's a very dumb squad that huddles together 100% of the time, and is blown to bits by not 1, but 3 rockets typically, and that's after NOT moving after getting hit by the first rocket.

The assault is no less effective in the scenario you describe here than a sniper. In both cases any fallen can be revived. The difference is, the assault is effective in other ways too. He can revive. He can heal. Due to his ability to heal himself, he is less likely to die and be a lost ticket than a sniper (assuming both are played with equal intelligence). In truth, when dealing with even a moderately above sniper AND assault, against an organized squad both are about as effective as the other in eliminating said squad, except the assault has uses outside of that. This brings us to the second scenario...

However, there have been many times that an entire squad HAS been blown up by a single recon player, by strategically spreading out RDX amongst cappables and choke points (titan hallways, any flag, etc.)

It is a truly foolish squad that is entirely wiped out by a single RDX blast. All it takes is one person paying any attention and you miss your chance. I can almost promise you that I have wiped out entire squads with my assault kit more times than you've killed a full squad with RDX. Because a smart assault player can use a combination of grenades, rockets and assault rifle fire to devastating effect.

Sniper in squad is very effective when there is a mix of encounter ranges, including long range (such as Berlin, Sidi, Suez, among others), as compared to all assaults at those ranges.

But there really isn't any range at which a sniper is honestly more effective than an assault. Thanks to the beauty that is airbursting rockets, the assault is actually more effective at practically every range except perhaps the very longest. In those situations what are the chances that a sniper will get a kill that will stay killed? I'd say slim.

I can just tell you from hours, and hours, and hours spent playing this game that with any sort of an organized team it is probably only one out of every 30 or 40 times that I get sniped while the member of a squad do I not get revived. Yes I occasionally get killed by RDX on a flag. BUT, every time I've known it was there, some of my squad has stayed off the flag while it was exploded, and then we all got revived again afterwards.

Even as *great* of a sniper as Guardian is, we still only actually have him play as sniper in our squads on rare occasion. Literally once in all of our competition matches have we taken a sniper and it made a difference. Maybe once in every 20 times I have Guardian in my squad will I have him play as a sniper - and he has both a skill level and tactical understanding of how to play that role within a squad better than pretty much anyone I've ever played with in 2142.

When the best sniper playing regularly on TG's server spends most of his time with a 3rd squad playing as an assault, that should tell you something - an above average assault player is, in the vast majority of circumstances, far more useful than even the best of snipers.

**Atomic Dog** · 01-24-2008, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by SithJedi

The problem is: Do people care more about playing the game for points or using real-world tactics to win and feel accomplished?

I think you've hit on the root of the issue here. I play 2142 rarely, but also play other games at TG. Truth be told, a sniper can run the risk of being a lonewolf unit in any game where the role is available. But so can any other role/kit. TG isn't about winning by any means necessary. It's about teamwork, tactics, and communication. Certainly the Assault/Medic Zergling Swarm is the most effective strategy in 2142. But by no means does that mean that all other tactics should be tossed out and certainly not looked down upon. That's simply not the direction we should be taking as a community. Because really, TG is even about BAD tactics so long as teamwork and communication is there.

You've all made great arguments for and against the recon kit. But the reality is, if a CO/SL wants to play with recon tactics, TG is a place where they can do it. We are not about securing tickets and points. And we're definitely not JUST about winning. As a member of the 4th, I can understand why Xen prides himself on playing the recon kit effectively. It IS what we do and what we enjoy doing and we pride ourselves on our ability to work within the team and fill the niche that we do. When I play 2142 I play primarily Recon or Support. I don't really care how they're underpowered compared to other kits...especially the recon kit which I gain the most enjoyment from.

There is nothing wrong with people outside of the "elite" snipers taking on the role if they're doing it within the TG framework. And there's absolutely no shame in choosing the lambert over something else. So while we all have our opinions as to what we think wins the game, let's keep in mind winning isn't everything at TG.

**Crux** · 01-24-2008, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by SithJedi

Yes, you can say all you want about Recon. However, let me say this: "the eyes beat the gun". Generally in 2142, knowing where the enemy is crucial, all the other classes do not excell at this due to their limited scopes. A recon on the other hand not only has a good scope to scan an area but can prolong the target aquistation signatures on nebat longer and they also move giving the squad more awareness.

That's in large what a commander's role is. IF we didn't have commanders with Sattrack and UAV, I think Snipers would have a much more fullyfleshed role in 2142. One of the most fun rounds I had playing PR was as a sniper. I hardly fired a shot. But I did sneak to flank enemy lines, then spent 30 minutes spotting targets for everyone, while studiously avoiding firing so as not to draw attention to myself. But 2142 and PR are not the same game.

The problem is: Do people care more about playing the game for points or using real-world tactics to win and feel accomplished?

Note, TG is not about realism as much as it is about simulation - that is to say embracing the environment, setting and restrictions of the chosen game. This is why we have different rules for 2142, vs World of Warcraft, vs Armed Assault, etc etc.

Embracing the concept and weaponry offered us by 2142, 'realistic' tactics are those that work without abusing game mechanics. It so happens, that in 2142, snipers are considerably less useful in most circumstances than the other kits. Is it realistic to use a tactic that is less effective purely for the sake of using a kit in a futuristic, made-up setting?

**Crux** · 01-24-2008, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Atomic Dog

I think you've hit on the root of the issue here. I play 2142 rarely, but also play other games at TG. Truth be told, a sniper can run the risk of being a lonewolf unit in any game where the role is available. But so can any other role/kit. TG isn't about winning by any means necessary. It's about teamwork, tactics, and communication. Certainly the Assault/Medic Zergling Swarm is the most effective strategy in 2142. But by no means does that mean that all other tactics should be tossed out and certainly not looked down upon. That's simply not the direction we should be taking as a community. Because really, TG is even about BAD tactics so long as teamwork and communication is there.

First off, I agree with everything you have said here. One comment I will make though - TG is about attempting to find good tactics revolving around teamwork and communication.

One thing I don't support is people knowing taking or pursuing a BAD tactic simply because it lets them get more kills or die less than taking other routes. That's selfishness to the extreme.

And, that's what the majority of people playing sniper in 2142 do, and frequently in large numbers. Please note here I am not arguing against the recon kit, or snipers in general. I'm not even arguing against low skill players with these kits. Everyone should have a chance to try different things and hone their skills. What I *am* arguing against is inappropriate usage of this role.

As we've already discussed, recons and snipers do have a role. But, it is a very limited role - as in there are a few things they do very well. In a 24 vs 24 game, there is room for probably 1 or 2 snipers per team to contribute in a meaningful way without compromising the team's overall effectiveness. When there are 4 snipers on your team already out there hunting for kills, you adding to their number isn't teamwork. Unless NONE of the other 4 are blowing up assets, or protecting a flag (in which case you might be contributing).

And sadly, that's the situation we see far too often. 5, 6 snipers on a team. Literally a quarter of a team out there ignoring flag captures, ignoring assets. Heck half of the time they set up in positions where they can't even cover a bloody flag. Instead they go where they can kill more times than they will die. Because, sadly, for the majority of snipers in 2142 that is their top priority. It's doubly sad because it gives a bad name, and limits the effectiveness of the good ones.

So I guess in summary, snipers/recons aren't evil. It is selfish players taking the kits with no regard to their team's needs that are evil. And *that* is what we are arguing against here.

**Atomic Dog** · 01-24-2008, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

So I guess in summary, snipers/recons aren't evil. It is selfish players taking the kits with no regard to their team's needs that are evil. And *that* is what we are arguing against here.

It's safe to say there'd be no argument from anyone here (I hope) on the idea that selfish players abuse the recon kit or any kit for that matter. I completely agree there. Seems that this argument went a lot of different directions...but if we bring it back to this one, problem solved!

**Bc2ID** · 01-24-2008, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

And sadly, that's the situation we see far too often. 5, 6 snipers on a team. Literally a quarter of a team out there ignoring flag captures, ignoring assets. Heck half of the time they set up in positions where they can't even cover a bloody flag. Instead they go where they can kill more times than they will die. Because, sadly, for the majority of snipers in 2142 that is their top priority. It's doubly sad because it gives a bad name, and limits the effectiveness of the good ones.

I wonder what would happen if the server was unranked?

**Augustus Gloop** · 01-24-2008, 08:24 PM

I think that if the server were unranked, we'd lose half the pubbies that might have had a chance to see things done the TG way.

**Crux** · 01-24-2008, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bc2ID

I wonder what would happen if the server was unranked?

Well the good news is it doesn't happen often at all. I just consider twice a month to be too often

To keep this discussion moving in a positive direction... perhaps some talk about understanding when not to take the recon kit would be helpful. After over a year of pretty successful squad leading both in our server, on other servers and competition play, here is roughly what my guideline would be like:

Top 5 signs you shouldn't take the recon kit:

1) You don't even bother checking to see how many other recons there are on your team first
2) You have no intention of blowing up assets, or directly protecting a flag from enemy invasion (and no, laying rdx then running to the other side of the map and sniping people, only to blow up the rdx when the flag goes neutral doesn't count)
3) You don't have a definite goal in mind other than to 'get kills'. Appropriate goals would be things such as "Using RDX, apms and sniper fire to block off this high traffic area and delay enemies hitting my team's back flag so my teammates can use my early warning to get back and defend."
4) You think the Zeller and a mobile squad are a great mix. They aren't. If you're going to move with a squad swallow your pride, grab a Lambert and help out in a meaningful fashion
5) You just got done watching "Sniper" starring Tom Berenger. This automatically means you shouldn't use the recon kit for at least a month

Of course others may disagree, and I welcome some discussion

**SithJedi** · 01-24-2008, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

Well the good news is it doesn't happen often at all. I just consider twice a month to be too often

To keep this discussion moving in a positive direction... perhaps some talk about understanding when not to take the recon kit would be helpful. After over a year of pretty successful squad leading both in our server, on other servers and competition play, here is roughly what my guideline would be like:

Top 5 signs you shouldn't take the recon kit:

1) You don't even bother checking to see how many other recons there are on your team first
2) You have no intention of blowing up assets, or directly protecting a flag from enemy invasion (and no, laying rdx then running to the other side of the map and sniping people, only to blow up the rdx when the flag goes neutral doesn't count)
3) You don't have a definite goal in mind other than to 'get kills'. Appropriate goals would be things such as "Using RDX, apms and sniper fire to block off this high traffic area and delay enemies hitting my team's back flag so my teammates can use my early warning to get back and defend."
4) You think the Zeller and a mobile squad are a great mix. They aren't. If you're going to move with a squad swallow your pride, grab a Lambert and help out in a meaningful fashion
5) You just got done watching "Sniper" starring Tom Berenger. This automatically means you shouldn't use the recon kit for at least a month

Of course others may disagree, and I welcome some discussion

Again biased aganist recon. How is that different from an assault soldier spamming pk rockets and not reviveing his teammates. How is that different from a support soldier deploying a shield for himself?

**Crux** · 01-24-2008, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by SithJedi

Again biased aganist recon. How is that different from an assault soldier spamming pk rockets and not reviveing his teammates. How is that different from a support soldier deploying a shield for himself?

How is what different?

**Cpt.Pierce** · 01-24-2008, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

Top 5 signs you shouldn't take the recon kit...

...5) You just got done watching "Sniper" starring Tom Berenger. This automatically means you shouldn't use the recon kit for at least a month

I have to say, this one is so funny I actually did laugh out loud, yet at the same time true. There is something about that movie...

**Zhohar** · 01-24-2008, 09:31 PM

There is a potential for a very inflammatory and counter-productive discussion here, namely: "Is the Recon kit more effective on the battlefield than some other kit? Does it help the team more?"

Please realize that such a pissing contest has no place on TG. I have my own personal opinions regarding the different kits, and I'll keep them to myself. In this discussion, the effectiveness and potential for teamwork is equal amongst all the kits.

Which reduces us to one basic thing: teamwork.

In my experience, and that of many people who have posted here, the vast majority of snipers are not team players. Recons are statistically more likely to be lone-wolfing and not teamplaying than other kits.

Teamwork-oriented recons will now note that it is unfair to judge a few by the actions of many.

Tough luck. Life isn't fair.

What can you do about it in my squad? Show me you can teamwork. Show me you care more about the five people around you than your own petty ambitions of headshots. After that, I'll let you carry whatever you best judge if I see you constantly striving to help your team as a soldier.
And you know what that means? Carrying other kits half the time. Because your first concern shouldn't be "how can I help my team as a Recon" -- your first concern should be "how can I help my team period".

There is too much focus on the specific kit here. Use whatever kit will maximize your team's effectiveness. This is called maturity -- it is one of the cornerstone of TG -- and it means "putting others before yourself."

**Guardianx11x** · 01-24-2008, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

But there really isn't any range at which a sniper is honestly more effective than an assault. Thanks to the beauty that is airbursting rockets, the assault is actually more effective at practically every range except perhaps the very longest. In those situations what are the chances that a sniper will get a kill that will stay killed? I'd say slim.

I'd just like everyone to read this again and soak it in. The situation I have found that the sniper is more effective is mid-long to long range runners on level or higher ground or at such long rangers where the target can see the rockets being fired and move out of the blast radius. This is only because PK-rockets are slow, difficult to site a distance on the level, and hard to adjust on the fly. Again, you must realize that this is NOT a huge advantage, just the ONLY advantage.

Some things I'd like to point out. The recon can't see farther than an assault player. The scope in 2142 enlarges what you already see, it doesnt allow you to see past the fog for any increased distance. This makes the sniper pretty useless for spotting.

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