Re: The importance of Recon

**Xen** · 01-25-2008, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Crux

Top 5 signs you shouldn't take the recon kit:

1) You don't even bother checking to see how many other recons there are on your team first
2) You have no intention of blowing up assets, or directly protecting a flag from enemy invasion (and no, laying rdx then running to the other side of the map and sniping people, only to blow up the rdx when the flag goes neutral doesn't count)
3) You don't have a definite goal in mind other than to 'get kills'. Appropriate goals would be things such as "Using RDX, apms and sniper fire to block off this high traffic area and delay enemies hitting my team's back flag so my teammates can use my early warning to get back and defend."
4) You think the Zeller and a mobile squad are a great mix. They aren't. If you're going to move with a squad swallow your pride, grab a Lambert and help out in a meaningful fashion
5) You just got done watching "Sniper" starring Tom Berenger. This automatically means you shouldn't use the recon kit for at least a month

Of course others may disagree, and I welcome some discussion

Crux I couldn't agree with you more, except maybe #4 but that's personal preferance, so no real debate there either.

**Crux** · 01-25-2008, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Xen

Crux I couldn't agree with you more, except maybe #4 but that's personal preferance, so no real debate there either.

Well, it isn't that the Zeller and a mobile squad can't be a mix when needed. But a *great* mix in 2142 they most definitely are not. With a really good sniper they can be workable though.

**Tarenth** · 01-25-2008, 08:43 PM

Though a case has been made for the stock rifle and being attached as a squad marksman. The Zellar just doesn't have the magazine size to support suppressive and continuous fire in order to add precision to your squad's firepower.

I would suggest running a Zellar if you're on an armor map however. If you can snipe mines you might as well do so and neither the zellar or stock rifle will do you much good if you get caught in the sights of a tank or walker.

**Bagheera** · 01-26-2008, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by Tarenth

Though a case has been made for the stock rifle and being attached as a squad marksman. The Zellar just doesn't have the magazine size to support suppressive and continuous fire in order to add precision to your squad's firepower.

That was probably me, and more than likely Guardian as well. The term 'sniper' denotes non-contributing camper, whereas designated marksman actually contributes to the squad with precision fire.

Originally Posted by Tarenth

I would suggest running a Zellar if you're on an armor map however. If you can snipe mines you might as well do so and neither the zellar or stock rifle will do you much good if you get caught in the sights of a tank or walker.

A Zeller toting recon is very handy to armor divisions. When I play this role, I will hop out of armor (as I'm usually in 2nd seat) or transports/jeeps and snipe out the explosives before they roll into a flag area. With 2 clips, you can usually nail most of the soccer balls and mines. However, there's usually only time to do this on large open area maps, such as Tampa, Suez, and Sidi. The other added benefit is that you have a sniper rifle handy to take out pesky engineers from range. Hint: You can shoot their feet/heads just under the metal fences, because there is usually a gap on some flags. This will spook them or kill them. Your armor drivers will love you for a) taking out enemy motion and emp mines b) taking out those guys packing Pilums.

In other, tighter maps with armor, it's not usually very handy. But RDX+Camo is!

**Datzl** · 01-28-2008, 02:51 AM

Avoiding most of the thread and rehashing what's been said per what Gloop asked not to. ( Though +1 for just nature of the game + TG server makes it hard to be "effective")

Was wanting to say a bit on the "long range" spotting and all that for your squad. The problem I find with this is both what guardian said most recently, but also that most maps have different elevations and lots of cover/objects that restrict the view barring down a long road. But even saying you have a map where you have nice long unobstructed view all around mostly ( Say tampa, but lots of random stuff rocks ect that block infantry level view) and that you can see appreciably further than a assault scope.... and you spot that enemy, yup there he is support guy running across the desert or whatever. So what? Spotting and that kind of thing are key, but on a squad level that tends to be more on immediate and nearby danger. Anything farther out like a squad moving in again goes to the commander, or usually someone will notice a squad coming in anyways/expect it. If they are so far out that only the recon sniper can see them, chances are they are not posing any threat to your squads immediate goal.

**HBrutusH** · 01-28-2008, 12:57 PM

Also, one some maps there is an annoying haze which limits how far you can see no matter how big your scope is.

**Bagheera** · 01-28-2008, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Datzl

Avoiding most of the thread and rehashing what's been said per what Gloop asked not to. ( Though +1 for just nature of the game + TG server makes it hard to be "effective")

Was wanting to say a bit on the "long range" spotting and all that for your squad. The problem I find with this is both what guardian said most recently, but also that most maps have different elevations and lots of cover/objects that restrict the view barring down a long road. But even saying you have a map where you have nice long unobstructed view all around mostly ( Say tampa, but lots of random stuff rocks ect that block infantry level view) and that you can see appreciably further than a assault scope.... and you spot that enemy, yup there he is support guy running across the desert or whatever. So what? Spotting and that kind of thing are key, but on a squad level that tends to be more on immediate and nearby danger. Anything farther out like a squad moving in again goes to the commander, or usually someone will notice a squad coming in anyways/expect it. If they are so far out that only the recon sniper can see them, chances are they are not posing any threat to your squads immediate goal.

It matters in two situations, typically.

1) Rocket-Happy enemy squad that the recon with scope will notice, that the squad may not.
2) If you're running with an armor squad, and you keep an eye out for enemy Engineers wielding Pilums and stock rockets at max range (see earlier post regarding armor squad + Zeller)

**MDFubar** · 01-28-2008, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Bagheera

A Zeller toting recon is very handy to armor divisions. When I play this role, I will hop out of armor (as I'm usually in 2nd seat) or transports/jeeps and snipe out the explosives before they roll into a flag area. With 2 clips, you can usually nail most of the soccer balls and mines. However, there's usually only time to do this on large open area maps, such as Tampa, Suez, and Sidi. The other added benefit is that you have a sniper rifle handy to take out pesky engineers from range. Hint: You can shoot their feet/heads just under the metal fences, because there is usually a gap on some flags. This will spook them or kill them. Your armor drivers will love you for a) taking out enemy motion and emp mines b) taking out those guys packing Pilums.

I have to say that I don't really find this useful. First, you can't see the Engy's from inside the tank or APC any better than the driver can so it negates the usefullness of the Zeller. Second, it is much faster to roll up and have the second person in the armor jump out and throw MMbait. You are not exposed as long as you would be trying to snipe them. You can't possibly take down the MM and the engy campinbg the MM, especially with the rate of fire. The tanks have a zoom on the main gun, I can pick off the engy at about the same distance they can pick me off.
If you are a sniper in my armor, you can not resupply me nor my squad mates and you can't repair any damage. While you are sniping the MM, the armor is a sitting duck. Armor that sits still is dead armor.

This is just my opinion as to what I see from the armor side of it.

**Major.Hangover** · 01-28-2008, 07:36 PM

Agreed with the first post, although it could be argued as to having a extra medic whom could get involved with the action more, as well as revive more therefore losing chances of squad falling, on the other hand a sniper could cover a squad whilst the squad is moving or as you mentioned act as a spotter.

**Xen** · 01-28-2008, 07:38 PM

I could see where a Recon squad would be handy on a Armor map. They go in first and clear out the mines, so that the Armor squads can roll in without having to stop and wait for the sniper in the armor to hop out and take care of it. Do the 4 man team SpecOp. so that your not wasting tickets, basicly 1-2 recon a medic and support. Their only job is to be minesweepers for the armor squads. All directed by the CO, cause he will know which flag he want's the armor to hit next. While Armor is securing the current flag the Recon could be sent to sweep the next flag for mines at range. If it get's too hot for the Recon team, they can fall back to the armor squad's for cover. That's how I see recon used on armor maps.

Sidenote question: Anyone know if you blow up enemy mines, do they damage enemy vehicles that are in the blast radius?

**Major.Hangover** · 01-28-2008, 07:44 PM

I think they do Xen, although that could be when someone is inside, not entirely sure which one it is

**Tarenth** · 01-28-2008, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Xen

I could see where a Recon squad would be handy on a Armor map. They go in first and clear out the mines, so that the Armor squads can roll in without having to stop and wait for the sniper in the armor to hop out and take care of it. Do the 4 man team SpecOp. so that your not wasting tickets, basicly 1-2 recon a medic and support. Their only job is to be minesweepers for the armor squads. All directed by the CO, cause he will know which flag he want's the armor to hit next. While Armor is securing the current flag the Recon could be sent to sweep the next flag for mines at range. If it get's too hot for the Recon team, they can fall back to the armor squad's for cover. That's how I see recon used on armor maps.

Sidenote question: Anyone know if you blow up enemy mines, do they damage enemy vehicles that are in the blast radius?

An engineer can do with with either Motion Mine Bait (MMB) or the defuser and do it faster. However shooting mines off the ground as the Engineer deploys them is a fun and interesting tactic if you want the added bonus of scaring the crap out of engineer. ^_^

I do not believe AV mines do damage to infantry or vehicles nearby when shot by the Zellar (not sure, but I'm going to guess no). I do know that APMs shot by the Zellar will detonate and kill anyone nearby (so much fun on titans). RDX will also detonate when placed on vehicles or repairable assets (titan, assets, CO supply crate, and armor all count) when shot with the Zellar.

MM mines detonated using MMB will do damage and kill/injury anything in their blast radius because the bait activates the mines and they detonate as if they hit a target and are not destroyed by an outside source. However it has been noted that kills made with MMB will be noted as TKs by the engineer deploying the mine and not by the engineer with the MMB in hand.

Not sure about EMPMs. I would assume that they are destroyed by MMB when MMs are around due to being caught in the blast radius of the MM detonation. Anyone have any info on EMPMs and MMB?

**Guardianx11x** · 01-28-2008, 10:29 PM

Motion mines do damage to infantry and vehicles in the blast radius when detonated by a Zeller. However, the kill is given to the engineer not the sniper.

**Bagheera** · 01-29-2008, 04:24 AM

I have yet to see an engineer detonate/defuse MM with the bait or defuser at 150m. The recon is a good defuser for a fast moving armor column that really can't afford to stop before rolling in and wait for defusing. Doing so makes them Pilum bait. This tactic typically works best when attacking the oil station and other flags on maps such as Tampa with a clear line of sight. As I've said, it's situational. Also, a friendly engineer can't shoot between or under the fences at engineers hiding or reloading, and neither can tanks, despite their zoom. In other situations, such as defending against an armor column, the engineer would be better suited.

**Xen** · 01-29-2008, 07:29 AM

The major downfall of having an engineer do it is he has to have a full squad cover him while he runs to the mine and defuses it. Valiant, but suicidal IMO. Being able to be back in some cover and have an avenue of escape I think would be more benifitial. Less chance of losing tickets, even if they were fully supported.

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