Re: The importance of Recon

**Datzl** · 02-03-2008, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by SKsniper128

Sniper recon if played right should not be taking any kind of fire whatsoever, so they have more breathing space and time to spot targets

Going right back around to the same thing, and the same thing everyones saying is the most useless thing the recon sniper can do, be 50 yards off or so from the squad, spotting and "patiently" shooting 5 people in the match that get revived... I'm terrible w/ map names but the landing with PAC walker and EU has command center on top of huge hill. My perfect example of a place that ifyour squad is anywhere accomplishing much, your going to be seeing action from most sides. Also goes again to hard to find much of anywhere where your getting good spotting ranges where you wouldnt be shot and CO cant say incoming squad South town from church or CC. Even when I'm embroiled in furious fighting it's going to be one of 2 things. It's intense, but light enough that I kill, as I reload I'm scanning all around real quick before sighting in on next target, or B: it's so crazy, your shooting, empty, go to pistol, then going to knife kind of fight, in which case, even if you spot Oh noes rocket men on balcony nearby, we are not going to be able to do anything about it or react all that well. Think theres reasonable chance even if there was somethign we could do, by the time it's communicated, rockets would already be raining in.

**Tarenth** · 02-03-2008, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by SKsniper128

Besides what use is an army full of medics, support, and engineers; if it goes onto the battlefield blind and deaf?

Worth more than an army with recons acting only as spotters since they will have CO SatTrack and UAV support, SL Otus drone support, Support Pulse scan/IDS support, Engineer PDS support, and in a pinch Assault Radar Grenade support.

Why have eyes dedicated to spotting when there are gadgets in the hands of others just as good? Your optics are not better as a recon, only the magnification and accuracy of your rifle. If you're sitting somewhere off in la la land spotting targets that no one cares about then you aren't on the field contributing firepower to a squad. If you are contributing firepower to a squad then you aren't 'hidden away from return fire' since you'll give away your position. For that matter, its hard to be 'hidden' when you automatically show up as a dot for the CO SatTrack. If you're not being flushed out its because the other team knows you're there and doesn't care enough to kill you.

When you become so unimportant that the other team doesn't want to waste rockets flushing you out, your arguement of being a dangerous force breaks down.

**Basic1** · 02-03-2008, 02:53 PM

this debate is pretty pointless now tbh, yeah i agree with some people, its going in circles..

face it, people like to play recon, people like to play all kits.. so let them..

pointless to debate it because it most likely wont change

any admins fancy closing this? its making people argue more then solve problems.

**Xen** · 02-03-2008, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Tarenth

Worth more than an army with recons acting only as spotters since they will have CO SatTrack and UAV support, SL Otus drone support, Support Pulse scan/IDS support, Engineer PDS support, and in a pinch Assault Radar Grenade support.

And this I think is the real reason there is such a problem with recon. Everyone looks at all these gadgets and go ok kewl. But every one of these devices can be fooled with recons Ghost beacon. And so can the CO's sat track, I've tested it out. It gives a false reading and hides the recon. Now with that said, it doesn't change anything cause of peoples bias against recon, but wth. Even having 3 recons in a 16 man army is too much for some people even though, I can almost garantee that they are mainly not the reason why the team lost so many tickets. It's the pace of the game and the mentality that the game promotes, that lost the tickets. And it's that mentality that makes 2142 unbearable anymore. So this cat is offically retiring the game, cause the best kit I can use is "worthless". Here's my Bf2142 ID, feel free to look my stats up. BF2142 ID: 88505719 All gained here at tg, all those explosives kills were either flag defends or flag captures, so this argument that recon can't contribute to flag assaults is out the window as well. Also, as many that have Squaded with me as SL will know, I'm usually leading the squad not behind them.

**Guardianx11x** · 02-03-2008, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Xen

So this cat is offically retiring the game, cause the best kit I can use is "worthless". Here's my Bf2142 ID, feel free to look my stats up. BF2142 ID: 88505719 All gained here at tg, all those explosives kills were either flag defends or flag captures, so this argument that recon can't contribute to flag assaults is out the window as well. Also, as many that have Squaded with me as SL will know, I'm usually leading the squad not behind them.

In the spirit of this....here is my BF2142 PID: 81242590, feel free to look at my stats too

This is exactly the type of thing I hate to see. Xen don't leave the game, I'm working on a 2142 sniper TGU class that I think you could benifit from. I personally agree with you, that the recon kit can be played to the teams advantage. However, please take my word for it (as someone with a bit more experience) that recon is mostly worthless unless you have a very paticular set of circumstances and the right players in your squad.

**SKsniper128** · 02-03-2008, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Tarenth

Worth more than an army with recons acting only as spotters since they will have CO SatTrack and UAV support, SL Otus drone support, Support Pulse scan/IDS support, Engineer PDS support, and in a pinch Assault Radar Grenade support.

You seem to forget that recon guys are very capable and can very easily circumvent your shiny gadgets and gizmos with one of their own. THE DECOY. yeah, with this small disk all your favorite tools will point you in the wrong direction. Before you say that this doesn't matter, I'll tell you something that happened on your server.

Cerebre Landing, I dropped a decoy behind a corner at Church, then placed an APM right behind it. My squad was tasked with defending Town Center. I covered the beacon from my position. I managed to get 3 people at once with one mine, shot another two, and fragged the last one. This went on until they finally realised that they were chasing after a decoy. By then I had already gotten 3 Infiltrator pins, 2 Combat Effiecency pins, and 2 Distinguished Combat effiecency pins. I was also spotting targets moving up the hill, and communicating with my squad.

So your arguement of Recon being inferior spotters just went out the window, your support options are not better than a good pair of eyes and ears. I'm not saying that Recon is all powerful, but in counter-intellegence as well as recon, there is no real match. the support options you stated earlier can help, but the only thing they are is a crutch for the soldier who is either unable, too arrogant or too lazy to spot for their teammates.

**Guardianx11x** · 02-03-2008, 07:27 PM

Good god guys. Tarenth is one of the smarest individuals on the board. Of course he knew about the decoy. However, I ask all of you guys to understand that you should rarely ever use the thing and NEVER just tote it around waiting for a chance to use it. He was pointing out that the role of a recon is NOT to act as a spotter. Also, the active camo and decoy are the least squad oriented items and not really all that effective (with FEW notable exceptions).

Recons are average spotters, Snipers are inferior spotters. The support options ARE better than a good pair of eyes and ears because they are an ADDITION to a good pair of eyes and ears.

Lastly, you guys are digging yourself in a hole by posting stats. That in not what TG is all about. But the sad part, is that if you compared yourself to some of the others posting here....you'd quickly realize exactly how ineffective you've been.

**Datzl** · 02-03-2008, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by SKsniper128

Cerebre Landing, I dropped a decoy behind a corner at Church, then placed an APM right behind it. My squad was tasked with defending Town Center. I covered the beacon from my position. I managed to get 3 people at once with one mine, shot another two, and fragged the last one. This went on until they finally realised that they were chasing after a decoy. By then I had already gotten 3 Infiltrator pins, 2 Combat Effiecency pins, and 2 Distinguished Combat effiecency pins. I was also spotting targets moving up the hill, and communicating with my squad.

I can't quite understand where you were defending town center, but your shooting at people going after a beacon at church and people coming up a hill, would mean it's church hill/road. If they had the church makes a bit a lot more sense, then again a good squad, aside from very quickly doing so, might just ignore a single blip for conintuing on to the objective. And your saying it took 15+ headshots + however many bodyshots just for them to realize no ones in the spot with the non moving blip? Bad squad, then again, possibly bad squad to manage to crowd 3 people into the blast of a insta exploding apm.

**BeSiege82** · 02-03-2008, 08:09 PM

Well, to those who have never been in a squad with all cloaks, it can be fun. I have been in a squad on Care bear with Silver as SL where we ran cloak up to the command center. If everyone runs cloak it is good.

**Datzl** · 02-03-2008, 08:28 PM

Aha, that would be interesting to see, and arguably usefull if it manages to work. ( Though not neccesarily better than just a single cloaked SL who everyone then spawns in on, since you would all have no revives ect). Would be hilarious though, your the enemy CO, pretending you missed them somehow, all of a sudden everythings drowned out by this massive buzzing, you look up from your labtop as you find yourself surrounded by 6 black suited figures. /knife.

**MDFubar** · 02-03-2008, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by SKsniper128

I covered the beacon from my position. I managed to get 3 people at once with one mine, shot another two, and fragged the last one.

So, from your post I gather the following:

1. You camped your Decoy beacon, not South Town Center.

2. You killed two people in a matter of seconds(we won't talk about the rate of fire, reload, scope, etc.)

3. You threw a grenade and killed another, the nade didn't destroy the beacon??

4. Where was your squad?

5. Did you have a medic nearby?

6. Exactly how was it that you felt you did the best that you could supporting your squad in a teamwork way?

It is not that the kit is useless, nor the people who use them. They have uses, they times and places just like any other kit. Yes, the RDX and the APM's are very useful and I would rather have those then the Ghost beacon. If you RDX a flag and get killed, another SM can revive you(if by some chance you switch kits) the Sm can now detonate the RDX.

I think the bigger point is that, as an SL, most people want kits that they feel are useful in case a kit-swap happens. Depending on the SL and the objectives, the kits are either useful or useless.

As for the comment about closing the thread, if the admins did that then someone would just start another and we would repeat all of this again.

The people who are trying to sell the kit to everyone else, don't bother. If you want to use it, then use it. Form your own squad and have a blast. If you are in my squad and I do not give that kit as an option, either leave my squad and form your own or bring a kit that I have requested. It is that simple, no one is sayingthat you can't use the kit. They are just saying(myself included) that if we do not ask for it, don't bring it.

**Crux** · 02-03-2008, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by SKsniper128

Not more ways, just easier and more obvious options are given to assault. Recon guys are just that, you use them as your eyes and ears. And if necessary your long-range firepower, and infiltration troops. Recon is not supposed to contribute to the battle in the same way as the other classes. So try not to use them as such. When done properly they are a deadly force on the field.

Besides what use is an army full of medics, support, and engineers; if it goes onto the battlefield blind and deaf?

See the problem with this whole discussion is, you're discussing recon as it works in the real world, and as you want it to work in BF2142. I mean your forum handle is SKsniper. Instead of coming to recon with the question of 'will it work?', you come in with the attitude of 'it will work', and then all of your arguments spring forth from that pre-determined certainty.

Recon in many games are truly a deadly force on the battlefield. Heck they can be in 2142 in limited scenarios and at the hands of a skilled player. But, note that I say recon, not 'sniper.

A properly done recon in a realistic setting is a potent force in many different ways. BF2142 isn't exactly realistic, with IDS, UAVs etc etc. Many of the uses of the recon kit as a whole are superfluous, and can be covered easily by other classes. It is sad, and I wish it weren't that way. But my wishing doesn't change the reality of it.

**Augustus Gloop** · 02-03-2008, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Xen

It's the pace of the game and the mentality that the game promotes, that lost the tickets. And it's that mentality that makes 2142 unbearable anymore. So this cat is offically retiring the game, cause the best kit I can use is "worthless". Here's my Bf2142 ID, feel free to look my stats up. BF2142 ID: 88505719 All gained here at tg, all those explosives kills were either flag defends or flag captures, so this argument that recon can't contribute to flag assaults is out the window as well. Also, as many that have Squaded with me as SL will know, I'm usually leading the squad not behind them.

If you're tired of 2142, it's understandable. Some folks like it for the game it is, some don't.

I think "taking your ball and going home" is a bit melodramatic.

No one is telling you that you can't play recon sniper. You can play any role you wish, as long as your commander or SL gives you permission (or doesn't say you can't?) What we are telling you is our opinions on their usefulness, which fans of the sniper are obviously disagreeing with. If you think snipers are teamwork oriented, and a benefit to their side, what are you complaining about? Other people's opinions?

**Augustus Gloop** · 02-03-2008, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

A properly done recon in a realistic setting is a potent force in many different ways. BF2142 isn't exactly realistic, with IDS, UAVs etc etc. Many of the uses of the recon kit as a whole are superfluous, and can be covered easily by other classes. It is sad, and I wish it weren't that way. But my wishing doesn't change the reality of it.

I personally think that recons are way underpowered in 2142. Except for UAV, other types of radar should be nerfed. IMHO, only recons should have the ability to network all of the radar information to their squad/team. IDS, etc make other classes too powerful.

**Crux** · 02-03-2008, 11:23 PM

Heck, I used a recon kit in our competition match tonight against the 21st. We had an OTUS running, and some nicely placed APMS protecting some avenues of approach. The whole setup worked very nicely and was very effective.

The previous round, nobody on our team took a recon as we had to be more mobile and play a far more active assault role due to the differing starting locations for the map in question (Sidi Power Plant). So the point is, recons aren't useless. You just have to know when to use them and also when to put that club back in the bag for something more appropriate.

Xen, I honestly don't know which is more disappointing. To see you quit 2142, or to see that you quit over a discussion on recons on the message boards.

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