Re: The importance of Recon

**No0be<Ninja>** · 02-04-2008, 12:34 AM

first of all, i'd like to point out, that this topic has gone in circles
second, this is all based on opinion

for against recon,
Recon is actually usually the least contributing member in a squad, considering that each other member has its own advantages (resupply, disarm, revive). Recons can be used to infiltrate, as stated above, but that all depends on what your infiltrating. If its a flag with no one on it, then why not have the whole squad. If its getting behind the enemy to flank, then what really can one man do against an army? (assuming this is the TG server).
For Recon
Somebody pointed out that people can use devices to point out people on the map, and to locate people instead of using a recon's sniper eye or w/e. But why waste a whole slot that can be used on another thing, if you can have the recon who doesnt need anything but a scope to do it for you? Recons, if used correctly can actually be very handy in stopping squads (IF used correctly). A recon causing chaos among the enemy can be very helpful towards your team. say guarding a flag, and you keep taking out the enemy. Usually if you can kill them over and over again (and have them reviving) this could buy your team enough time to come and re-take it over
recon topic's are really bias and opinionated*

**Tarenth** · 02-04-2008, 02:46 AM

Several things to go over.

1) This discussion has gone around in circles several times already. This is probably the 4th reincarnation of the topic. As such even closing this topic won't make it go away. However leaving it open does allow for ideas to be expressed and revisited. For some people that's unneccessary and yet for others it is vitally important.

2) THERE IS NO BIAS AGAINST THE RECON KIT. There never was and everyone is free to play whatever kit they can as long as they play it correctly. However, there is a very clearly defined nitch that the recon kit fills and not falling into that nitch to perform optimally in order to perform subpar in another field is generally not acceptable. If you wanted an example it would be if someone took an assault kit and packed it with smoke and radar genades only. If you're only taking smoke and radar grenades you have a disconnect on how to play the assault kit because you're not fulfilling the duties that fall to you with that kit. The same goes for the recon except those duties are rather limited. If you fail to fulfill those duties then you aren't doing things right.

If you are getting 'Sniper' confused with 'Recon' then you already have a very big gap in understanding to cross over. The sniper bring many advantages to the field, however those advantages are weighed against the disadvantages and counters that fall against them. Its when you weight the pros and cons of your choice do you see where your weaknesses and strengths truely lie.

3) I'm well aware of the decoy. Its the NS unlock after the Zellar and creates a false signature if you are within X yards of it. However I fail to see how that helps you as a spotter.

Your premise that an army with recon spotters is better than an army without recon spotters falls flat when your next arguement is "But they can't find me with the decoy!".

Ignoring the fact that your previous arguements revolved around APM and RDX placements and taking a decoy will remove one or the other from your kit. Ignoring the fact that the decoy is not, in fact, a spotting tool. Ignoring the fact that the decoy is only effective as an electronic countermeasure and visual spotting, like you do with your sights and scope, will still be effective. Ignoring the fact that it has the same amount of armor as other deployables and can be destroyed with direct or indirect fire (like an APM going off). Also ignore the fact that you have to remain within X yards or lose your false signature which makes it a camping tool.

The decoy is a very useful tool. It is NOT, however, a spotting tool. It's handy in covert operations and its use has been discussed in detail on covert operations to destroy assets with a sabotage squad comprised of a small fireteam in order to lock down assets and armor leaving the UCB. It has also been discussed as a tool to help squad leaders sneaking behind lines lay down a false trail so pursuit is sent in the wrong direction. It will not hide your squad, however, so it is not very team centric in standard operations.

That said. There IS a bias against your run of the mill "LOL I R SNIPER!" player because they do not acknowledge the limitations of the recon kit and contribute very little to the team. If you want to learn how to play a recon effectively then listen to Guardian or anyone else sporting the Spec Op and Sniper ribbons. They have proven themselves on the field in competitive levels of play and know exactly how to squeeze the kit for everything that it is worth.

The two advantages snipers bring in most games are advanced optics and long range stopping power. Those are not present in BF2142. The recon has no advanced optics and, in fact, is limitied compared to the options present with other kits. The recon lacks long range stopping power because its hard to strike fear in the hearts of your enemies with a headshot from across the map when the enemy treats it like a momentary distraction and picks their squadmate up faster than your can chamber your next round. THAT is where the recon class falls flat as a sniper and why arguements that center around a sniper playstyle fall apart.

If you play the recon like a recon and act like a covert op or squad marksman then the kit is very very deadly and very very useful for sqaud and team play. Do not get suckered into mistaking the recon as a sniper and put your focus on your rifle and your sights. Think beyond the "LOL I R SNIPER!" mentality and devise tactics that do not go "I camped X by myself and..."

**Zhohar** · 02-04-2008, 03:48 AM

To all these people defending the recon kit as effective all the time, and not only in specific instances (like SL breakthrough, destroying assets, and lone flag defense), have ya'll ever been congratulated and thanked on your work?

Ask yourself: "has a SL ever commended me on what I've done for the squad"?

Because I've never heard such a praise. I've heard plenty of praises on the engineers (ex. nice pillum shots on armor that was wrecking the squad), supports (ex. IDS on SL's drone for advance warning), and medics (ex. SL revives when the whole squad was down), but I doubt I've ever seen a SL praise a recon outside of specific situations.

Shouldn't that tell you something? I mean, if you're really helping your team out as a recon, shouldn't someone notice that? Shouldn't someone thank you? Congratulate you?

**Xen** · 02-04-2008, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

Ask yourself: "has a SL ever commended me on what I've done for the squad"?

Actually, I have heard that praise a few times from the CO's because my squad either filled a gap that needed to be filled on defense, or they were able to break through and capture a key point. All while being a recon/sniper. And, just because I have never been given a Sniper or SpecOp ribbon for my playing shouldn't mean anything, if people are mature enough to listen. So, I'm not in the "Elite" crowd, big deal. It doesn't mean that what I have to say is any more or less important that someone who does have a ribbon. If the information is solid.

The main reason I have chosen to retire this game on TG is not because I don't enjoy playing the game, I'm tired of the people that seem to think that assualt is the end all of the game, which makes for a very boring game. And, I suck at reviving, so forcing me to go assualt medic is more of a determent, then a boon, for the team. If I wanted a rocket spamfest I'd goto a Pub server. I'm looking for something much more tactical then that. Playing recon test's my intelligence each and every time I play. Things like; where can I effectively put my skills to best use for the team; how can I get to this objective without getting my squad killed and is there a means in which I can spy it out before I get there to insure I know what I'm running my squad into. Where is this APM or RDx going to stop the rush the best. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong and my squad and team suffer, but you know what? Atleast, I like the challenge, and work with what I know I'm good at. This run and gun mentaility, while it is the one of better tactics for the BFx series. I just wonder if is it the best tactics TG can produce? Please don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the tactics of 2142 are the problem, I'm arguing that people are so bias against it, that they lump everyone that uses it, to the exclusion of other kits, as poor players and lonewolves, which is odviously not the case. The game can be as fast or as slow as the players make it, not the other way around. The game is just a tool to be used, we, the players, make the final choices.

**MDFubar** · 02-04-2008, 08:51 AM

Xen,
Have you read the past couple of pages? No one is saying that you can't use the kits. Lead a squad and do whatever kit you want, tell the SM's what kits you want and have fun.
So, you say you suck at reviving but that you like to be challenged? I used to suck at rockets and the Clark RDX, so I practiced and got better. Not saying that you have to learn to revive, but isn't a challenge also learnign to be proficient at soething that you are not good at presently?
When I first started reviving, I got killed more than I revived. Some people just don't want It in thier squads for the reasons stated.
You choose whatever challenges you want to take on. No one has said that they are all lone wolves or especially "poor players". Simply that thye prefer other kits and load-outs.
I think that you are possibly taking this discussion way too personally.

**SKsniper128** · 02-04-2008, 01:14 PM

Alright, how about this unless you have something that will move this conversation forward, don't bother posting here. As said before we are going in circles.

**MDFubar** · 02-04-2008, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by SKsniper128

Alright, how about this unless you have something that will move this conversation forward, don't bother posting here. As said before we are going in circles.

This is an open conversation where people can voice thier opinions. Although in a perfect world people would rread every post, but they won't. Someone may have a point of view that they wish to share, and although I hate to see it go round and round, I do not think that we shouldbe telling people what to post and what not to.

That is why it is a discussion, JMO.

I must also add, who is it that decides what moving forward is?

**Guardianx11x** · 02-04-2008, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by MDFubar

I must also add, who is it that decides what moving forward is?

I do Fubar....I do.

So now that you ladies seem to have gotten your fill of useless banter. I say we get this topic back on track...Everyone seems to agree that there are atleast SOMETIMES when a recon is a tactical advantage. Lets talk about the things recons can do, and when they should do them. Or things we think that dont work.

An example:

I find that if you are holding a lambert, and there is no otus buzzing overhead...you should seriously consider a switch of weapons or kits. The lambert is not a great weapon and poses no real advantage to your squad in terms killing ability. I approach the lambert with the mentality that..."yea, I know its not that great of a weapon, but it's as close to an assault rifle as I can get". While I've seen Crux and Lyra make it seem like a nice alternative, its because a gap in skill level on their part and is not attributed to the gun. If you compare their (or practically anyone elses) states for the lambert you'll find that they fair much more poorly in combat with this thing than the standard assault rifles. Course personally I'm more effective with the sniper rifles, but thats just me...i've put a lot of time into them. I feel like the sniper rifle offers a unique killing ability to squads. Of course I have to recognize that some people arent comfortable with the sniper rifles, mainly the hardcore CQC guys. They should stick with whatever makes them more comfortable. I'm simply saying that if you need a recon, and you have a decent sniper...It might be worth it to have him play that sniper role instead of a pseudo-assault.

Another example:

Snipers are very poor spotters. As a sniper you have ZERO optical advantage in the range catigory. Every player on the team can see just as far as you can, but you can spot the same targets without even scoping (which is what I often do). So please, do not get into a position where your mentality is something along the lines of "I'm a secret spy providing critical information to my squad/team from behind enemy lines". If you have thought like this, you are being a waste. 2142 provides more than its fair share of ways to college data on the battlefield, good ol' sniper spotters are obsolete. Along the same lines...I've heard this one "Guardian, you snipe...I'll be your spotter".....No guy, you wont. You can be my medic, support monkey, friend, confidant....but my spotter. No, get a real job.

Last thing to think about...are snipers more or less effective on larger maps compared to small ones?

- penguin...for your pleasure.

**HBrutusH** · 02-04-2008, 03:29 PM

I'd say they are actually less effective.
I say this because the larger maps tend to be vehicle based, and although they are quite open, no-one tends to leave their tanks/walkers/apc's on their own.
On smaller maps (eg. Camp Gib, Tunis) everyone is on foot, which provides more targets. Although that could slow down an over-eager sniper, maybe?

**Crux** · 02-04-2008, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Xen

And, just because I have never been given a Sniper or SpecOp ribbon for my playing shouldn't mean anything, if people are mature enough to listen.

It absolutely should not mean anything. And frankly to me it doesn't. I don't have a ribbon for the Support kit, but I consider myself pretty damned handy with it. Having squad led a whole heck of a lot, I can also talk a lot about appropriate and inappropriate uses for it, ribbon or no ribbon.

The main reason I have chosen to retire this game on TG is not because I don't enjoy playing the game, I'm tired of the people that seem to think that assualt is the end all of the game, which makes for a very boring game.

Assault isn't the be all and end all of the game. Assault DO need to make up the bulk of any team. That doesn't mean there are not niche roles that need filling, and recon is one of them.

It all comes down to proportion, Xen. If there are 20 slots on a given team, on a typical map like Belgrade that is both armor and infantry, I'd say 10-12 of them should be assaults. 2-4 should be supports. 2-4 should be engineer, and 1-2 should be recon. It isn't because recon is useless. It isn't because recon doesn't have its place. It is because recon is a niche slot in BF2142. Taking too many recons is detrimental to the team as a whole, which is contrary to what TG is about.

And, I suck at reviving, so forcing me to go assualt medic is more of a determent, then a boon, for the team.

So then don't go assault medic. If your SL refuses you to go recon, find another squad or make your own. TG is fun that way!

Playing recon test's my intelligence each and every time I play. Things like; where can I effectively put my skills to best use for the team; how can I get to this objective without getting my squad killed and is there a means in which I can spy it out before I get there to insure I know what I'm running my squad into. Where is this APM or RDx going to stop the rush the best.

The exact same challenges I enjoy when I take the recon kit. Like all of the kits it takes a lot of thought to play truly well.

Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong and my squad and team suffer, but you know what? Atleast, I like the challenge, and work with what I know I'm good at.

This is true for everyone with every kit. Sometimes you play well and help your team. Sometimes you play poorly and don't. The key is in the intent. If you're *trying* to help your team to the best of your ability then THAT is all that counts.

This run and gun mentaility, while it is the one of better tactics for the BFx series. I just wonder if is it the best tactics TG can produce?

There is a time and a place for run and gun. There is a time and a place for carefully planned defenses. That's the joy of playing on a TG server. They are all viable tactics. BUT, they don't all work all the time. Sometimes a fast and furious assault is needed. We see a lot of that. Just as often a deliberate and solid defense is needed. Sadly we don't see enough of this and it is something I plan to start a thread on this week when I get time.

I'm arguing that people are so bias against it, that they lump everyone that uses it, to the exclusion of other kits, as poor players and lonewolves, which is odviously not the case.

All snipers are recons but not all recons are snipers. It comes down to the mentality. I have just as much scorn for the guy camping in a corner with his bianchi trolling for kills as I do for the sniper doing the same thing. It isn't an action designed to help the team. A good recon player can be mobile with a sniper rifle and contribute to his squad. Sadly the majority of the guys playing a recon kit aren't doing that, and that is where the reputation comes in. But, Xen to be completely honest with you if you were able to read the comments in here as something other than a personal attack on your chosen kit you might notice that the vast majority of the comments have been aimed at a specific type of recon player, and the proper proportions of them on a balanced team.

So you're going to quit playing 2142 despite the fact that you enjoy it because a lot of TGers think that too many recons on one team hurts their chances of winning. Well the same is true of any kit on any map. A team full of engineers on an infantry map isn't going to help much. A team full of assaults won't be much use against a walker or an APC. Each kit has its strengths and weaknesses. Each has its place. Each has its role. The problem comes when people become so attached to a kit that they try to pretend it is suitable for things that it frankly just is not. And that's true of anything.

Keep playing. Play recon. Do it as best as you can. Just be mindful when there's 6 snipers on your team and recognize the time to stop and consider another kit. That's my 2 cents.

**Bagheera** · 02-06-2008, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

To all these people defending the recon kit as effective all the time, and not only in specific instances (like SL breakthrough, destroying assets, and lone flag defense), have ya'll ever been congratulated and thanked on your work?

Ask yourself: "has a SL ever commended me on what I've done for the squad"?

Because I've never heard such a praise. I've heard plenty of praises on the engineers (ex. nice pillum shots on armor that was wrecking the squad), supports (ex. IDS on SL's drone for advance warning), and medics (ex. SL revives when the whole squad was down), but I doubt I've ever seen a SL praise a recon outside of specific situations.

Shouldn't that tell you something? I mean, if you're really helping your team out as a recon, shouldn't someone notice that? Shouldn't someone thank you? Congratulate you?

Yes, and the squads and clans I regularly play with on the west coast ASK me to play recon sniper 9 times out of 10. They thank me, and my regular SL even calls me "sniper-man" even though my call sign is Bagheera383. I regularly take care of squad marksmanship, demolitions (anti armor and assets), and booby-trapping flags.

However, there are times when it's better to play assault or another kit, and I do so without being asked. My 2nd most used kit is the assault with the Baur/Herzog/Defib loadout, because I find I like to revive like mad, and the Herzog is a wonderful tool to dispatch those who just killed your soon to be revivee. Okay, back on track. I play recon marksman (hah, better than sniper!) when it's appropriate to the situation, especially in defense, which is way more important than running around like Rambo with all assaults, throwing yourselves at flags at every opportunity. Defense!

By the way, I've also been thanked by armor drivers in my squad, when I snipe the mass of engineers who are wrecking them. I let them know they've been killed, not so that I can be thanked, but so that they know it's safe for them to advance. When they move up and they're not getting spanked by Pilums, they usually thank me.

I guess it just depends if you're running with players who appreciate the player AND the kit without bias.

**Razcsak** · 02-06-2008, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Guardianx11x

Last thing to think about...are snipers more or less effective on larger maps compared to small ones?

Absolutely more effective on larger maps. They tend to be flatter, obviously, which makes sighting rockets harder. Medics are far fewer, so there's a smaller chance your target will be revived. Unlike assaults, they can take out the engineer that steps out to repair a vehicle (most engi's will see the rockets arching in and simply get back in their vehicle). However, they are not and should not be seen as anti-vehicle. While we all love to tag a poorly placed walker with some RDX, its most likely going to be a huge waste of a ticket. Let the engineer take care of it, you take care of their engineers. Learn where on vehicles engineers exit (especially APCs) and always be sighting there.

**Firebane Cecil.** · 02-06-2008, 03:19 AM

this is about the importance of recon.

i would say, its more of a defensive kit. just like the support (not clark 15)
i think it can be good for covering the squads back. putting down apm's in strategic places can be handy, especially on camp gibraltar. say at ruins, where there are 6 different entrances.

a good apm can stop a solo idiot running in and causing damage.

also, a sniper is basically handy for long range combat, picking off soldiers. it can also kill sl drones, sl spawn beacons, and sentry drones in one hit. a zeller can even detonate apm mines.

a spec ops soldier is a very multi talented kit, anti vehicle and unit combat. the cloak is fairly useless at short range, but it can be great at long range. the lambert is a clone of the scar but weaker i think. single shot can be used as well. in titan defense, i think this is by far the best kit. 2 recon soldiers can defend an entire titan, ive seen it. ( i resupplied with support). they both got a distinguished combat efficiency. any enemies crouching by the apms would get caned by the lamberts. (then again,2 engy can defend a titan just as well). (with resupply).

the final verdict? (from me

) i think it is important depending on the map. it certainly isnt NEEDED, but no kit is really needed. a good team can just not die. i once went through a tg cerbere landing map, and didnt die. i didnt really notice either until i got a dce.

now, criticize my post!

criticize.... "shakes fist with angry connotations"

**Augustus Gloop** · 02-06-2008, 09:29 AM

Ok... you asked for it!