Re: Bias against Recon

**Mordona** · 07-19-2008, 08:44 PM

Me personaly, I used Recons on defensive maps like carebear and gibby. 1, for the otus, Nothing gets by without you seeing it. This has saved me breaks many of times where the CO doesn't do jack. The other for last resort Flag save. Yes we hold a medic of by experience now, but this still buys time for my squad to react before the flag is fully capped. The disorientation is priceless in a counter-assault.

But this all fits with my SL style. My style is reserved CO like. I stand back and watch the battlefield change and I react to it. I'm not a spearhead assault like Zhohar or Crux. That's their style and workes well for them, But not me. I often end up dead and usless on breech assaults, my 1 vs 1 lacks compared to them and me down is worse then a mute SL. So I stay back and play director of my 5 men and tell them to move here, there and back again. This way I can keep out of the firefight, cool and level to watch what my bravo squad is doing, checking the other flanks every few seconds. This style works well on defense. But offense on a different story.

The assault doesn't IMO work that well with recons because you need to plant explosives, assausting doesn't allow this. Only if you push them out and setup a defense. How often does that happen in gibby or carebear? Not to much. So next is the rifle, Moving with a squad that needs to move is tough. Some really good teamwork snipers can do and I've seen it, but thats only 2 names I can pick out on TG's roster. Lambert is junk IMO. The rage sucks and takes 4 bullets to wound light armor. It's a SMG. In buildings of berlin, priceless. anywhere else, junk. you also tend to die more since your CQB now, that means your explosives are 1/2 as good since they are not up as much. Zeller? why did I even unlock it?!

My suggestion is find out what works best for you when you SL. What if you don't SL? Then your at the mercy of the man incharge. You want a recon? I suggest in you SLing and finding a tactic that works well for you and works on TG.

**Uranium - 235** · 07-19-2008, 08:48 PM

Here's how I feel about that whole 'spotting' thing.

The sniper (Red X) can 'see' a lot of areas that the squad can't (Yellow Dots), but 95% of that is utterly irrelevant to the squad, and simply not worth worrying about. And covering that 95% is the CO's job, that's why he has Sat Scan and UAVs, or just zoom-in. The areas worth notice would be simply the area to the north and south of the squad. Is that tiny area worth losing a player? No. That's why we have IDS.

**Mordona** · 07-19-2008, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Uranium - 235

Here's how I feel about that whole 'spotting' thing.

[media]http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8572/mapbelgradevi1.jpg[/media]

The sniper (Red X) can 'see' a lot of areas that the squad can't (Teal Dots), but 95% of that is utterly irrelevant to the squad, and simply not worth worrying about. And covering that 95% is the CO's job, that's why he has Sat Scan and UAVs, or just zoom-in.

Sometimes you can't rely on your CO. Idealy yes, but we are ranked and public. We are always going to have fighting COs and sometimes chairless command. That data usally is worthless. I can't tell you how many times I tell Zhohar something and it drives right by to another squad. But being aware of whats happening to everyone else might influence where you move. If your spotter is trained right, they'll have excellent contact reports and be able to inform the SL almost as good as his CO.

Again, I must note that they need to have very good battlefield awareness. That takes time to build and master.

**Uranium - 235** · 07-19-2008, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Eroak

Sometimes you can't rely on your CO. Idealy yes, but we are ranked and public. We are always going to have fighting COs and sometimes chairless command. That data usally is worthless. I can't tell you how many times I tell Zhohar something and it drives right by to another squad. But being aware of whats happening to everyone else might influence where you move. If your spotter is trained right, they'll have excellent contact reports and be able to inform the SL almost as good as his CO.

Again, I must note that they need to have very good battlefield awareness. That takes time to build and master.

Again - is that worth losing an entire player? One less gun on the front lines, one less guy on the flag, one less paddle to bring your ass back to life? I submit that it is not. Saying that it is because your CO *MIGHT* be a tool seems a little... absurd.

A grunt will have a lot more situational awareness, and see more ultimately. The sniper will have tunnel vision (literally) thanks to his little scope - whereas a grunt is damn-near ALWAYS looking around.

I'd rather rely on the eyes of my squad than the eyes of some goob who's getting ADD on a little hillside, looking down three degrees of vision, just so he can catch one guy I can't see.

Ultimately the very few places a sniper can go to see a *LOT* that a squad on ground level can't (ie: the crane next to Power Station on Tunis) generally just makes them an easy target too. He'll spot a guy or two and catch a rocket in the backside.

On a final note, there's no 'bias' against Recon - frankly, when the best teams in 2142 determine that X is really quite useless, there's not much to dispute.

**Zhohar** · 07-19-2008, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Uranium - 235

Again - is that worth losing an entire player? One less gun on the front lines, one less guy on the flag, one less paddle to bring your ass back to life? I submit that it is not.

Depends on who they are and how they're playing. There is no black and white in this matter, Uranium, as there is none in all other aspects of life.

Just last night on Verdun, rogue himself was pumped on adrenaline and kept spotting a squad rush on Eastern. From SL experience in BFCL, I can tell you what he did saved our butts at least twice and kept us off from 3 flag bleed.

The same happened with Eroak and Dirtboy the other night ... again on Verdun inf only. They spotted some enemies ahead of us. Eroak actually took out a very well emplaced Ganz that was covering my (SL) body.

Sniping and to a larger extent spotting require a ridiculous amount of skill to pull off halfway right. Spotting is what I want to focus on: a skilled player pumped on adrenaline will be several times more aware (think faster, look for specific things, notice little things) than an average SM. If you put them to use spotting, regardless of the kit, they will save your butts a lot of times.

The problem is predicting and realizing who that person is. And it's never that the person is assigned. I usually just ask them "Az, how's it look down below?" if I'm at the back of Statue. He will tell me relevant things because from his k/d I know he is aware and paying attention, I know he's on adrenaline, and I know he knows what to look for because he's SL'd himself.

The same goes for Eroak and Dirtboy -- they know what to pay attention to. It's very hard to teach people what they should pay attention to. This is why it's difficult to make an argument for spotting, or leaving a player exclusively for that.

In fact, I would argue that snipers are the *worst* spotters possible. An assault soldier with a lot of CQ fights will have his adrenaline pumping hard and he'll be able to see things others will miss. He'll notice things and think them three steps ahead. A quick scan on the map to notice a buggy on north side of Pond, all the way north, why? Armor on Statue, it won't bail, no mines, you were just there, it'll go for Monorail -- press v "SL, buggy north of Statue, probably going for Monorail -- can I spawn UCB with buggy?"

Adrenaline helps with situational awareness and sitting back humming a cheery tune as a sniper does not get the adrenaline pumping.

**Mordona** · 07-19-2008, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Uranium - 235

Again - is that worth losing an entire player? One less gun on the front lines, one less guy on the flag, one less paddle to bring your ass back to life? I submit that it is not. Saying that it is because your CO *MIGHT* be a tool seems a little... absurd.

I dont think you realize I kick more fighting/ignoring COs then any other offense. Its the least desired position in the game and ever so few vetern players take the seat. Even more COs let the battle play out and only play support. Even more never say anything over comms. We are not real life military, we are not trained how to do our job here. Putting faith in random players seems absurd to me. Scrims it's another story, but in public play IMO it might have it's place.

I play recon, support and engineer the most. My worst shooting kit is the AR rifles. But I know how to revive like anyone else in the 3rd and practiced it for hours. I now when I need to swtich kits and make the save or rely on my appointed medics to take the save. Just because your "Recon" or "anti-tank", doesn't mean you have to stay the kit and ignore whats needed that moment.

**Zhohar** · 07-19-2008, 09:36 PM

I now when I need to swtich kits and make the save or rely on my appointed medics to take the save. Just because you "Recon" or "anti-tank", doesn't mean you have to stay the kit and ignore whats needed that moment.

That's another thing. I posted this a while back -- I ran in Heavy's squad a few weeks ago and I purposefully asked for a sniper rifle. I kept up with the squad, helped with softening advancing targets north of Berlin Square, kept the Otus Spots, kept APM/RDX on flags, but what I found I did more than anything was to drop the recon kit, pick up the SL kit, and revive him.

Squad first, kit second.

**austforbeer** · 07-19-2008, 11:09 PM

Lets face it, recon 99% of the time means sniper and with the way TG people play, and in a sense are trained to play, snipers don't have a place. And lets not forget that most snipers are bad players.

For example, 9 times out of 10 I don't use a beacon. That's because playing in many successful squads(like Zhoar's) I've learned that the most effective are the ones where a SL is getting revived and doesn't need one. If I'm not getting revived then the whole squad is doing something wrong. Obviously I'm speaking in generalizations.

Do snipers have their place? Obviously, but for most squads especially starting out on a map they generally aren't going to fit with most strategies. That said, many of us know each other here and know what to expect from each other. As such you'll never get a NO out of me when you want to be a recon Rogue.

At the end of the day, I think it all comes down to the general mindset of TG players and how we play.

**Thesleeper01** · 07-20-2008, 01:47 AM

For me the reason I chose not to have many recon has to do with the nature of 2142. For the most part infantry fights in 2142 can for the most part be broken down into 2 types of fights

Long range where the sniper rifle is at it's best performance, rockets take a while to get to your enemy, few weapons can reasonably put down fast and most require a long dwell time. This is where the Sniper rifle works best clearly.

Short to mid range rockets come fast and furious, any weapon is dangerous, weapons that put a maximum amount of metal in the air more so, ability to deny the corpse prevents revives, a weapon that fires a golden BB made for melons means you have a small chance to win a shoot out because you have one shot then a 1-2 second pause while they turn you into hamburger. Sniper rifles perform sub standard in these cases and the carbine is a very light gun to go head to head versus someone with a shotgun, voss or baur.

You can generally survive an engagement at long range with 100% of your squad even if you do nothing but fire some stray rockets that cause the sniper to displace. At short range a sniper is at a great disadvantage because of the nature of his weapons.

APM is sweet & RDX is insane but the main weapons leave a lot to be desired.

That having been said a Recon is by far the best class to defend confined areas like on titans where you can place it at the choke point.

Also leading an attack on a flag is becoming better with a recon, with a recon you first get your recon to drop a RDX on the flag and blow it up likely killing some defenders and giving the person with the RDX deployed a neg score from blowing up more then you can move your team in with more safety because RDX and APM’s are down. Clark RDX works like this but at range so safer.

**daithi1** · 07-20-2008, 09:20 AM

I'm not going to get into the whole arguing thing because I don't knw enough about it. Up until recently I was a never, ever have a sniper in the squad. Then I saw people playing it properly and was slightly swayed. On the last password night I played sniper in Azura's squad on Berlin the one where we got capped out. I was last on the team. I still feel I did better than if I had played assault. Not points wise but I did a huge aout of spotting whcih wasn't being done by other players.

I think they're are good on some maps (FoB being one). I haven't used them to there fullest extent yet but I think there is room in a defensive squad for sniper. I think it is probably the hardest kit in the game to use effectively. Being a good shot helps but I don't think it's the be all and end all. The person has to have huge situational awareness and good judgement. They have to be a moving constantley. Also they should be spotting (Q and Voip if possible) more than 50% of the time.

I still haven't had enough time playing as sniper in TG sqauds to figure out how much worth they are.

**Uranium - 235** · 07-20-2008, 01:54 PM

The view distance in the game being ass doesn't help things either, though.

**YdoUwant2know** · 07-20-2008, 04:28 PM

I think the thing people need to realize is that recon is a very passive kit. You cannot run and gun, you have to wait for the enemy to come to you.

The biggest issue with Recon kits is that people think they are sniper only kits. The name says it all. They are great for recon work. Getting behind enemy lines and spotting, or staying back and spotting. But just as in real life, recon is not meant to fight.

The second biggest issue with recon kits is that NetBat breaks the game. When sniping you rely on the fact that enemy does not know you are there to take them out. The in game radar however make this just about imposable. The second you kill someone, they tell their team members, who then spot you and knife your butt. Add to it the fact that it is very hard to get head shots with the rifle because most people on TG have learned how to keep moving and the recon kit is just not worth it for most players.

Overall, I think that the recon kit as a sniper sucks. It is way underpowered and far to easy to get killed with. But if you look at its defensive capabilities on choke points, I would have to say it is second to none. APM and RDX are great for defending and because most of TG swore off the recon kit, it is usually unexpected. That said, it definitely take a different mindset to play recon effectively. I like to think of it as a trickster kit.

**Lorax74** · 07-20-2008, 07:03 PM

I'll go ahead and add my $.02 to this topic (again

):

I don't mind one recon in my squad. As a PAC squad leader I often start as one with advanced cloak and the decoy loaded. But the times I allow a recon to bring a sniper rifle is pretty rare. Typically I'm always moving and pushing on a flag and relying on the fact that I have 5 members of my squad moving together (hopefully) with me. A recon with a sniper rifle isn't usually can't keep up and becomes a liability and a distraction to me.

**Mordona** · 07-20-2008, 07:17 PM

When I play recon, I seen them more as a explosives kit then a sniper.

**bb gun** · 07-20-2008, 07:21 PM

Agreed. The sniping portion of recon is essentially worthless.

However: The RDX, and APM's, and cloaking can be extremely valuable.

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