Re: How a Sniper helps a Squad

**<FHC]==0 HighNoon** · 06-12-2009, 12:35 AM

Actually I have read this thread from the beginning and there is a difference between lonewolfing and staying with your squad from a distance.

Having a sniper at the very front... I don't know what to say. Doesn't that go exactly with what I said, that the recons are distanced from the squad? If not, what's the point of having them spot when everyone else can spot just as well (not to mention the commander, not to mention an Otus which can do the job 10x better and in 360 degrees).

In situations where stealth is necessary, simply don't deploy the Otus. As for RDX and APMs on flag, the delay this causes can usually be measured in seconds as people who stood outside the RDX radius come in and begin chain-reviving everyone. Same with APMs - trying to APM a group of soldiers accomplishes next to nothing. They're most effective against single soldiers who won't have anyone there to revive them a split-second later.

The tactics you're bringing up are precisely why there is so much anti-sniper sentiment in squad-based play.

**=ZU=Loaky** · 06-12-2009, 03:21 AM

Yeah I got on TG tonight and squaded up. I wasn't even there 5 minutes and I was 7-0. Lucky APM blew 3 soldiers to pieces in the first minute.Then the TG squad leader asked me to load something other than recon. So I just left the squad and went to someone else's.

5 minutes later I get kicked for excessive TK's it says. Guess that happens when you have so many TG members trying to get in their server. Some people gotta go to fit them all.

**Guardianx11x** · 06-12-2009, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by Xen

You odviously have not read this thread from page one then... Because if you did, you would know that was a huge argument against having anyone play Recon on the server at all. It used to be assumed that if you're playing recon, all you would do is lonewolf.

As for detached from their units, they should be in the front leading the unit to the next objective. Otus gives your SL away as it's floating over his head and the infantry scanner requires the Support to have a device in hand instead of a weapon. A recons ability to spot and track hands free without giving his position away is far suprior to those devices. Even when the enemy unit goes behind cover, recon contunies to track him, which can help the unit counter enemy movements.

le sigh, Xen welcome back to the 2142 forums...as always i suggest you PLAY THE GAME before you dole out this terrible advice. The recon kit is the WORST spearhead kit in the game, it has NO sight advantage over other kits, the detection bonus is centered around the otus NOT the recon (unless he is the SL) the recon alone has ZERO additional detection ability aside from increased diamond time that is pretty much useless. Assaults and Supports are the best first wave groups, both are better equipped for such a task.

Also, if you played more often (ever) you would be aware of the IDS the support class carries. Basically it is a device you can place that is a 360 degree radar infantry detector...which is why nobody uses the scanner...its hands free and goes well with the shotgun.

**Xen** · 06-12-2009, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by Guardianx11x

le sigh, Xen welcome back to the 2142 forums...as always i suggest you PLAY THE GAME before you dole out this terrible advice. The recon kit is the WORST spearhead kit in the game, it has NO sight advantage over other kits, the detection bonus is centered around the otus NOT the recon (unless he is the SL) the recon alone has ZERO additional detection ability aside from increased diamond time that is pretty much useless. Assaults and Supports are the best first wave groups, both are better equipped for such a task.

Also, if you played more often (ever) you would be aware of the IDS the support class carries. Basically it is a device you can place that is a 360 degree radar infantry detector...which is why nobody uses the scanner...its hands free and goes well with the shotgun.

You know gaurdian, you're right. While it still seems that the bais against Recon is still rampent, I will come and play again. I hope to be proven wrong. I'm just afraid I won't be.

**spiff913** · 06-12-2009, 04:10 PM

and then the eagles will fly down and carry you back to the monorail...

**Zhohar** · 06-12-2009, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Xen

While it still seems that the bais against Recon is still rampent, I will come and play again. I hope to be proven wrong. I'm just afraid I won't be.

Why do you think this bias exists?
Do you think the majority of squad leaders are willfully trying to be worse at this game? To not achieve their objectives?

I apologize if that's blunt, but I can't understand where you're coming from. I don't understand why you think we would choose to do something sub-optimum because of some irrational bias against, arguably, 1/4 of the game.

**Mordona** · 06-12-2009, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Xen

You know gaurdian, you're right. While it still seems that the bais against Recon is still rampent, I will come and play again. I hope to be proven wrong. I'm just afraid I won't be.

I play recon often, more for the demolitions than anything else. When I play small maps, I tend to use the Lambert Carbine for close support to the squad, often I'm covering teh rear of the squad with traps if we are not defending the flag. This tends to keep our most exposed flank clear of trouble or atleast I know somethings coming if something gets through. As for the front line, I play survivor. So I sometimes am at the front flag giving my SL the intel by sight, not items. Once in a while I'll "mark" target if I'm on the front with a rifle. This'll give the NetBat diamond and allow my squad to see what I'm calling, I usally reserve this for confirmed SLs and heavy weapons support. Although this is rare. I staty away from the fronts with a rifle. I find watching your squads flanks from a distance is better. You can get those who burst off trying to get a quick kill on your SL. I cant tell you how many times I save Zhohar's ass and he never had a clue

But also this has its limits. Mostly terrain blockign your view of the squad. You need to be in motion and give up easy kills on the field and watch your squad. Tunnel vision for your sniper is very easy to get cought into.

Recon isn't about tools or kills, its about playing the kit smart and dynamicly. And honestly its a rare trait that I only seen in a few. Assault and support are very strait forward kits. Theres alittle you need to know, but beyound that you must be able to predict the battlefield with recon and keep your personal intel up. You need to banter though useless intel and tell your SL what he needs to know. You need to be able to pick your targets and leave other easy prey to the rest of your team. You need to focus where you have to most extreme tunnel vision to overcome.

Recons are to much and most people utilize only 10% of its true effectiveness. Thats why there is a bias. That's why they wont be useful until people can get past that fraging and truely focus on the squad.

**MrJengles** · 06-12-2009, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by =ZU=Loaky

Yeah I got on TG tonight and squaded up. I wasn't even there 5 minutes and I was 7-0. Lucky APM blew 3 soldiers to pieces in the first minute.Then the TG squad leader asked me to load something other than recon. So I just left the squad and went to someone else's.

5 minutes later I get kicked for excessive TK's it says. Guess that happens when you have so many TG members trying to get in their server. Some people gotta go to fit them all.

Your name sounds familiar and I have a nagging suspicion I may have been that SLer XD although I rarely SL so maybe not...

If this is the case however, feel free to remind me of the match and I will give you a specific reason. In my mind SLers ask for a change from Recon to another kit for one of 2 reasons:

They see the kit and doubt the player's situational effectiveness as Recon, so ask for a change to improve the squad capabilities. In most cases this proves wise as there are a lot of people that are not very good at the Recon kit - and with that same skill level are more effective with another kit. This is the "bias" and is directed toward people the SLer has not seen online before, and as such, does not know their skill level.

This is still acceptable because that Recon just has to play enough to get noticed at other times where kits are free, and then the SLers will know how effective they are and be able to make a judgement call.
Purely situational: A SL that is assaulting a flag will call for mainly medics; dealing with armor and they will call for engineers, etc...

In this case it is not a matter of skill but a matter of which kits are best suited, and therefore the same level of skill will increase effectiveness with a change of kit.

Considering the tactical nature of TG, it is all about the situation and a judgement call in both cases. Sometimes everything is going well and a sniper is allowed regardless of being recognised or not. But a lot of the time squads are very busy, so my point is, when deciding, the first to be requested to switch are the unfamiliar faces. Familiar faces that are known to be good enough may be exempt from this to some extent as it is understood that they are still effective. But even they get asked to switch sometimes if the situation requires it.

**Bladecutter** · 06-15-2009, 06:25 PM

I single handedly held Outer Bridge Lock against half a team as a recon solely through the use of APMs, RDX, a rifle and my pistol. I was able to do this because I knew where everyone was, but they didn't know where I was. Eventually the rest of my team came in and helped. I don't see that as useless, and I kept spotting flanks and ruining assaults through mischievous APM and RDX placements.

I have fun playing a recon because, unlike Assault, I'm not just running on a flag and eating a grenade every five seconds, staring up at the sky with a countdown timer. Granted, if I'm off covering the team from a distance as a sniper I probably won't get revived, but really, I can't tell you how many times I was up in the front lines with an entire team of medics running past me and writing their names down for a future knife in the back because they didn't revive me.

The way I see it, Assault is straightforward. Run in, blow up, get revived, repeat. Support is different due to different tools, but it's pretty much the same from my view.

The anti-recon mentality of TG is only there because people cannot look past kill counts. This is pretty annoying if you just -love- playing a Recon but get hostile squad leaders and squad members if you pick it. I can't name how many times I've heard kick threats because I, or someone else, was a recon. I find myself more and more leaning toward SLs I know won't give me crap for the kit choice, like ZAOTOICHI or Eroak. I will change kits if I need to, but come on, if you play Assault day after day it just gets old.

Now, this is my outlook on medics. Useful, yes. But I facepalm when I'm told to be a medic when the entire team is full of medics and we're at some standoff where there is just rocket and grenade spam, then revives, and it's just a game of outlasting the other team. More medics won't help, and it won't suddenly break a flank and open up an opportunity to retake the game for your team.

A sniper, on the other hand, instills fear in the enemy. They won't sit still and shoot rockets out if they keep getting a shot to the face. APMs slow them down if one of your flanks goes down. A well-placed RDX or five can stop an advance or significantly slow it. Heck, if you can manage to sneak behind everyone, then just drop RDX on some juicy clumps of red dots and watch the bodies fly.

**MDFubar** · 06-16-2009, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by Bladecutter

The way I see it, Assault is straightforward. Run in, blow up, get revived, repeat. Support is different due to different tools, but it's pretty much the same from my view.

I think you are looking at this wrong, the plan is to stay alive and the medics are to ensure that you can. Combined with firepower and bodies on the flag, that is how to cap it.

Originally Posted by Bladecutter

The anti-recon mentality of TG is only there because people cannot look past kill counts. This is pretty annoying if you just -love- playing a Recon but get hostile squad leaders and squad members if you pick it. I can't name how many times I've heard kick threats because I, or someone else, was a recon. I find myself more and more leaning toward SLs I know won't give me crap for the kit choice, like ZAOTOICHI or Eroak. I will change kits if I need to, but come on, if you play Assault day after day it just gets old.

Really, if you want to play Recon/Sniper and the SL doesn't want that..then make your own squad. The mentality is not about kill counts, it is about what is tactically viable for the objective that the squad is going to be accepting. There are times when I request a recon and times when I do not want one due to our mission.

Originally Posted by Bladecutter

Now, this is my outlook on medics. Useful, yes. But I facepalm when I'm told to be a medic when the entire team is full of medics and we're at some standoff where there is just rocket and grenade spam, then revives, and it's just a game of outlasting the other team. More medics won't help, and it won't suddenly break a flank and open up an opportunity to retake the game for your team.

Sometimes you don't need to take a flag, but keep the soldiers alive. Tickets are what win the game and deaths take them away. Attempting a breakthru is not always needed nor smart, sometimes it is just throwing away tickets. Many sniper kills are simply revived and do not take away from the tickets of the enemy.

Originally Posted by Bladecutter

A sniper, on the other hand, instills fear in the enemy. They won't sit still and shoot rockets out if they keep getting a shot to the face. APMs slow them down if one of your flanks goes down. A well-placed RDX or five can stop an advance or significantly slow it. Heck, if you can manage to sneak behind everyone, then just drop RDX on some juicy clumps of red dots and watch the bodies fly.

They will not sit still, they will draw your fire and have someone flank you. Apms do slow down an attack, but that is it unless the soldier is by themself. As for the RDX, experienced SL's will have two on the flag and the rest)medics) waiting for the RDX to blow. Once it blows, you revive and take the flag.
While it may sound like I don't like recons, you will find that I utilize them quite often in my squads. Again, depending on the objective. If we are attacking and you can not be on the move, then I don't need a recon in the squad. If we are defending, then I can use one. Like any other kit, it effectiveness is situational.
More and more I find many uses for the recon in my squads and in the past few months my squads have become more dynamic due to the experiments I have done with different combination of squad members.
We experience, we learn, and we grow....open minds and willingness to try new things are some of the reasons that we improve.

**LordKelvin** · 06-16-2009, 10:39 AM

If there is one thing a sniper does not do, it is "instill fear". People have no fear of death in virtual reality, or very little. If you have 4 medics behind you ready to pick you up if you get headshotted, you will keep getting up and trying to kill that sniper. Fear never enters the equation.

What snipers DO do effectively is delay (not prevent, just delay) infantry attacks via harrassment and anti-personnel explosives, and serve as precision damage-dealers to soften up an enemy force when it is being engaged by your squad. Recon is a supporting class. They are there to harass, distract, recon, and soften targets for destruction by the Assaults. Thats all there is to it.

**Xen** · 06-16-2009, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by MDFubar

Sometimes you don't need to take a flag, but keep the soldiers alive. Tickets are what win the game and deaths take them away. Attempting a breakthru is not always needed nor smart, sometimes it is just throwing away tickets. Many sniper kills are simply revived and do not take away from the tickets of the enemy.

I would like to point out, as someone that plays with objectives in mind. This idea is completely backwards to me. In CS:S we don't focus on how many people are left and try to widdle the enemy down. We try to complete the objective and not kill hunt. For me to apply that to 2142, flags and ground captured is the objective, because realistically, we would not know how many soldiers are marching on us. I think this is where a alot of issues have arisen between players in 2142 and myself. You bleed the enemy faster by capturing the most flags. But, as pointed out above by MDFubar, people see the ticket count as the main objective. And with that mindset, Assualt medics are the best way to complete that. Recon, on the other has to be played with more of a CS:S style mindset. They are useless in the senerio MDFubar proposes above, because they were never made to be part of that grind. If people worked towards flag captures and defending what they have, recon is invaluable, cause you can use Explosives, warn of incoming enemy squads, and delay them while the recons squad engages. On offensive, they can use ghost suits to see how strong defenses are before the squad as a whole rush into a flag, plant explosives in an area where the counter attack may come from. None of the above can happen if everyone just settles for ticket grinding in the middle of the map. (exaggeration to make a point.)

**SharinganTH1422** · 06-16-2009, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Xen

I would like to point out, as someone that plays with objectives in mind. This idea is completely backwards to me. In CS:S we don't focus on how many people are left and try to widdle the enemy down. We try to complete the objective and not kill hunt. For me to apply that to 2142, flags and ground captured is the objective, because realistically, we would not know how many soldiers are marching on us. I think this is where a alot of issues have arisen between players in 2142 and myself. You bleed the enemy faster by capturing the most flags. But, as pointed out above by MDFubar, people see the ticket count as the main objective. And with that mindset, Assualt medics are the best way to complete that. Recon, on the other has to be played with more of a CS:S style mindset. They are useless in the senerio MDFubar proposes above, because they were never made to be part of that grind. If people worked towards flag captures and defending what they have, recon is invaluable, cause you can use Explosives, warn of incoming enemy squads, and delay them while the recons squad engages. On offensive, they can use ghost suits to see how strong defenses are before the squad as a whole rush into a flag, plant explosives in an area where the counter attack may come from. None of the above can happen if everyone just settles for ticket grinding in the middle of the map. (exaggeration to make a point.)

OK...no.

People in 2142 have for a long time had the opposite mindset than you think, that is, we must do all things possible to get that flag, even if it means charging headlong into losing 6 more tickets for our team in a matter of seconds. Crux recently made a couple of threads in this Tactics forum about the need to realise that tickets are the main objective of the game, and killing people reduces enemy tickets. To paraphrase: "We shouldn't kill people to capture flags, we should capture flags to kill people" (God I hope that's not the wrong way round

)

So yes, tickets are the aim, bleed is good, but it is most definitely not impossible to win if the enemy has bleed. All it takes is some clever play, some good reviving and killing and Bob's your uncle.

**MDFubar** · 06-17-2009, 12:21 AM

You can, and it has been done, out kill the bleed. The enemy can have more flags and you can still win. There are some maps where all you need is one flag to stop the bleed, then it is a matter of who kills and who revives the most. But, back on track...a sniper/recon can be very helpful to a squad in the right instances. You just have to look at the objective of the squad you are in.

**MrJengles** · 06-17-2009, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by LordKelvin

Fear never enters the equation.

What snipers DO do effectively is delay (not prevent, just delay) infantry attacks via harrassment and anti-personnel explosives, and serve as precision damage-dealers to soften up an enemy force when it is being engaged by your squad. Recon is a supporting class. They are there to harass, distract, recon, and soften targets for destruction by the Assaults. Thats all there is to it.

I agree about fear, and I agree on most occasions that APM victims get revived, RDX a little less often since the bodies are strewn all over the place and medics can rush in and finish the last few off.

But I've found myself learning how to make a sniper much more effective at doing what you say they don't, that is, killing people themselves and making them stay dead. The APM or RDX that kills an enemy alerts you to their death at that spot, so you simply throw a grenade at the inevitable reviver, and both die. With your scope aimed at the body you keep them down. I've seen pleanty of neat tricks by Hooper, Eroak and ArmoredBear, which I've started using myself.

Also one little trick immah tell anyone who hasn't thought of it yet...when you place RDX, zoom the map in at the same time and mentally note down the exact spot, then, when you run off very far away and notice red dots going in that direction, zoom in on the big map to watch them run onto the spot...and blow them to kingdom come. Alright, it's an occasional trick and I am not advertising to watch the map constantly, I'm saying sometimes you have got too far to directly see, especially if you were getting shot at and had to retreat. Or even just put RDX down as you run around the corner and blow it up when you see that the red dot following you is in the right place (you may be out of APM's, be saving them...or they don't activate fast enough).

Anyway, I'm enjoying the class even more now.

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