How to win against a strong defense

**Fruvous** · 06-12-2009, 07:48 PM

There are plenty of times when the assaulting team is at such a distinct advantage that victory seems hopeless. If the defense is properly fortified, such as in Toll Station (Camp G), attacking seems like trying to topple a brick wall using only your face.

So, if the defending team has the perfect defense, how would the attacking team mount the perfect offense?

If it is possible to set foot inside the perimeter without dying, and we need to get the other flag, I think the best bet is the SL Recon cloaks and run like there was no tomorrow - if the SL breaks free, the squad spawns in. Infantry Scanner for instant reaction, rest assault medics, and a beacon in the right place will almost assure a flag behind the lines.
If the squad doesn't make it, at least several squads will be diverted for a while.

But what if the defense is nigh impenetrable? With some inter-squad coordination and luck, Berlin (Crossroads) and Camp Gibraltar (Toll) should be extremely tough to beat. (If every squad realizes Harbor isn't all that important [personal opinion] and spawns for TollDef, Camp G defense should win most of the time).

**MDFubar** · 06-12-2009, 08:55 PM

Have you played on our server?? You may enjoy some reading on this topic by searching the forum for map tactics. Cloaked recon runs do work on occasion, but beacons(IMO) are nothing more than death traps. On Camp G, you do not need another flag after Harbor in order to win...food for thought.

**machowner** · 06-12-2009, 09:03 PM

I agree MD, I wish more people would realize that a lot of times pushing for more flags is what is causing them to lose.

**Fruvous** · 06-12-2009, 09:41 PM

Well, at the same time, you can be on the losing side of the wall. It isn't uncommon to see a bunch of PAC along the Toll wall dying left and right from grenades and rockets. Yes, revives help, but occasionally the whole squad dies. The EU is relatively safe, protected by a long corridor and cover.

In this scenario, I notice that the PAC tickets are going down faster than the EU tickets.

I'm not saying suicide missions is a good idea. I'm asking, what are the other options when your tickets are falling faster than theirs, and the only way to get to advantageous ground is through a solid wall?

**Lorax74** · 06-12-2009, 09:44 PM

I think EU has it worse than PAC on Camp G. It's been said before, once PAC takes Harbor, they are better off than EU, they more room to move around, don't have bleed, and have much better angles for rocket and 'nade spam.

**Holy** · 06-12-2009, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machowner

I agree MD, I wish more people would realize that a lot of times pushing for more flags is what is causing them to lose.

Maybe a good team strategy to avoid this might be to only take one flag, keep one squad within a close perimeter of the flag, and then have the other squads spread out and cover the area around the flag. This will prevent flag bleed on maps like Camp G, while allowing people to stay alive more than they would be if they rushed into a death trap.

**Damonte** · 06-12-2009, 10:04 PM

As a frequent commander on the EU team during Camp Gibraltar, Damonte can provide some commentary on the original post.

Cloaked recon SL's are visible to commanders, and will be picked up by IDS's, UAV's, and the sentry gun. Beacons will be camped mercilessly, and anyone foolish enough to spawn in on them will be slaughtered before they get their bearings.

The Toll Station/Harbor standoff many times (not always) comes down to the discipline of the squads and the coordination of the squad leaders and the commander.

Honestly, with decent squad leaders on the defense and a competant EU commander, it's darn difficult at the best for a PAC SL to get through the lines.

A good commander will also make sure that a competant squad is chosen to chase down and demolish a breakthough squad (should that happen) without compromising their Toll Station or Harbor defense.

Do not let this commentary dissuade you from searching for a new method. By no means does TG have the answer to everything as far as 2142 goes.

**Lyramion** · 06-12-2009, 10:24 PM

Give me 3 full TG Squads and I´ll break you every defense

Using coordination of Squads and CO you can temporarily shift the balance of teams to your side for an attack.

- Placing the UAV during the attack. Enemies might not have one up right now.
- EMP/Orbital during attack. Will keep 3-4 people busy
- Push after an enemy squad died. You will be up by another 3-4 men

Then you make them take different attack routes. A high push on a catwalk is often successful when paired with EMP/Orbital on the high building. Let the other squad try the other Catwalk. And while the enemies are trying to figure out what is going on send the 3rd Squad into the middle. If you have a 4th Squad holding spawn.... now would be the time to buggyrush in.

Putting together such a detailed attack on the fly will only work with experienced TG SLs. But it is very hard to defend against.

**YdoUwant2know** · 06-13-2009, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damonte

... Beacons will be camped mercilessly, and anyone foolish enough to spawn in on them will be slaughtered before they get their bearings...

truer words have not been typed.

<FHC]==0 HighNoon · 06-14-2009, 08:23 AM

Yeah, the best thing to do is just make a push the instant a large group of enemies dies. It'll happen eventually. You just have to time it right. The worst is getting killed and as you're watching the timer tick by, you notice the perfect rush opportunity occur. One of many facepalm moments 2142 brings to us.

**Gorhaut** · 06-14-2009, 11:55 AM

Lyra, what happens if the opposite commanders is just as good as you are? And he/she also have 3 full TG squads?

My personal feeling is that the attackers usually lose tickets a lot faster than the defenders due to attacking to much. At some point the stand off is a fact and you need to focus on keeping the revives up and go for the easy kills instead of going for Toll (example) at any price. Maybe this says more about me as a bad player mayhap, but I sometimes think that really good players greatest issue as SL is that they tend to be more aggressive than the squad always can manage (talking about pub squads). Then that combines with a stand off situation it can lead to heavy ticket losses.

Fruvous, check out the thread "Rethinking BF2142 (the Re-Written version)" by Crux. Some very interesting thoughts regarding flags contra ticket loss.

**Lyramion** · 06-14-2009, 01:35 PM

The enemy CO would have to asign the right number of people to each flanks as quickly as possible. This won´t happen fast enough. One flank will always be 1-2 people down.

If the attack is well coordinated and quickly executed a defending team always will have a reaction delay. Abusing this delay is what gives attackers an advantage. If you take too long you lose this and will pay for it. Another advantage is the intel the defending squads have to exchange. "Enemies up west catwalks!" "Enemies up east catwalks" "enemies pushing in the middle" in addition to the CO talking can create an intel overflow that is hard to properly react to.

Personally I love standoffs. Only for one reason: I am good with Rockets and Grenades and I find fun in killing people with them and camp their bodies while I stay alive. But during my time as CO I learned to avoi standoffs on a team level. 2-3 good Rocketeers that can camp bodies on your team and the enemy teams tickets will melt away. 2-3 trigger happy people pushing up too fast and your own tickets melt away. If you keep the game dynamic using your CO coordination there is a much better chance of winning since you decide the pace. Even giving up flags is a viable option by now.

Mr.Ander50n · 06-14-2009, 02:11 PM

The thing that ties most people up, and makes teams lose is that people are so intent on capping flags, instead of staying alive. The ticket bleed is not severe on most maps (unless you are playing a large armor map, when the bleed really does come into effect), and as long as you hold one flag (on Camp G, Fall of Berlin, Suez to some extent, and other smaller, less armor-heavy maps), and keep revives up and rockets flying, you can win the match.

Highnoon, rushes are what usually lose a team a ton of tickets. If the rush is not well coordinated by the commander, it usually goes awry, unless the rush vastly outnumbers the defenses, or the defense is utterly incompetant. Take, for example, a rush from harbor to toll:

Attacking team rushes with two squads. The defense only has one squad, but they are set up covering every angle with rockets, and a sniper has apm'd/rdx'd the flag. One ids has been set up near the front. They see the paths the two attacking squads are taking, and promptly grenade and rocket their paths, slowing he advance and forcing people to take out their revive kits to heal friendlies. Now their advance is halted, and they are in the open, while the defenders still have them targeted. Game over.

The best defense is a good offense, in most situations.

**Fruvous** · 06-14-2009, 02:25 PM

I read the Flags vs Ticket Loss post - per the numbers saying that there's an abysmal percentage is lost to ticket drain. It is an eye-opener - it's stopped me from pressing flags in certain maps where there is mutual assault (such as the oil map).

However, think of the times that PAC wins on CampG - after they bypass Toll (which is almost always as a result of EU forces at Harbor and no IDS on Toll). PAC gains even footing when EU forces are divided between the front and the Ruins/Base; the game can go either way. PAC gains an advantage when they own the back and harbor; there's a much better chance for PAC to win. PAC loses their advantage when they lose the back, if only for the fact that EU will be concentrated forward.

I don't think I've seen very many games where PAC won the rocket fight. We see PAC trying to push behind Toll because it's pretty necessary. We don't see EU trying to push to Harbor, because it's not very necessary.
That freedom to move Lorax74 was talking about? Makes no difference, because they WILL meet the EU at Toll. EU still controls the movement because PAC can't advance - and they have nothing to gain for retreating. Moving around is like because you own harbor is like... camping your own uncap. EU just doesn't approach it.

Yes, ticket drain should be the least of anyone's concerns.
However, at the same time, PAC has a significantly lower chance of winning the engagement. The big issue isn't "does PAC stand a chance at winning the standoff"? The big issue is, "PAC will stand a much greater chance of winning if they bypass. How do we do it?"?

Once EU has a strong hold on Toll, I personally think it is a smart move to get a new flag ASAP to prevent a coin-flip war. I'm not saying it's easy (It it a TG server - commanders will alert, and there will be a rapid response) - but that's why I'm asking.

So anyways, here's the proposed tactics to bypass a defense to gain an advantage:
-Advancing when a large group of enemies die. There's a time window of less than 15 seconds to use.
-Many squads pushing one side simultaneously attack one side. This leaves the enemy with half of a team static, and the other half overwhelmed. Should have clear goal and method.
-Tell squads to move closer to flag. Play on your own turf. Requires teamwide cooperation, enemy incentive to advance. Not an option for Berlin Crosswords.

Mr.Ander50n · 06-14-2009, 06:48 PM

The EU forces, if concentrated at toll, are in a quite small amount of space, which leaves them more succeptible to rockets and grenades, as opposed to the pac forces, which can spread out around the entire entrance, minimizing casualties from a single grenade or rocket, and minimizing the amount of revives needed. Just because EU has the "higher ground" does not mean they necessarily have an advantage. Now, if the PAC forces did not use ids's or UAV's to their advantage, they might not be able to hit the most concentrated areas of the EU forces, which might allow for the EU to take control of the situation.

But, even if this possibility becomes a reality, the only reason PAC should lose tickets to the EU is if squad members push too far forwards, and no other PAC member can get to the revive safely.

As for the strategy to rush when a large amount of EU forces are down; it is very difficult to organize a mass attack in less than 10 seconds, which is about the amount of time you would have to bypass the few defenders at toll, rush the flag, and neutralize it before the EU forces respawned En Mass. You also have to take into account whether or not your commander is competant, and has a sat track up the moment all the EU forces die (or UAV). In addition, all the SL's need to follow orders, and move immediately, and some SL's are more cautious than others.

This tactic would work most well if multiple SL's were snipers, who's squads advanced as medics to mask the cloaked SL's, who would try and assault a rear base together, to minimize the risk that they all die. Their squad would try to overtake Toll, forcing EU to respawn at toll, and diverting attention from the back.