Fruvous

I'm a little demotivated. Just recently, I was commander of PAC on Tunis. While I won't name anyone, I'm disappointed because some SLs absolutely refuse to follow my orders as commander.

Situation?
We own Power Station. They own Junkyard, and almost all enemies are at Junkyard. About half the PAC tries to assault, and fails. We own Power Station. It has not seen any action for a long time. They own Eastern Docks - only a squad (near the barge) and a walker resides.

Response?
I order squads to stop pushing Junkyard. Spawn at Power Station.
Granted, I didn't give rationale- I shouldn't have to. The reason was (hopefully) obvious that we're losing a substantial amount of tickets.. plus it's COs orders (which isn't always the best rationale for a SL to follow orders).

Reasons?
-Stop pushing Junkyard:
We're losing a lot of tickets at Junkyard.
We won't get Junkyard back with their current defense.
-Spawn at Power Station:
A few squads push Eastern Docks. Perhaps a few squads stay at Power.
PAC base spawn isnt necessary - it's the uncap. Yes, assets might be vulnerable, but attacks happen only infrequently. They will be too occupied with Eastern and Junk.
-Take Eastern Docks:
It's easy to take with 2-3 squads.

What Can Happen?
1) We take Eastern. They will react by going Power or East. Either way, we have a flag and Junkyard is much easier to take. Best case is reaction fails, and we get 3 flags.
2) We don't take Eastern.
If they start spawning more Eastern, Junkyard is safer.
If they don't react, repeat 1.

What happened?
Two squads, one of them TG-tagged, refused. Something about distraction. While I understand the merits of distraction, a few squads on eastern will take the flag far faster than Junkyard can react. Having squads pushing Junkyard is precisely what the EU wants - I wanted to deny them that.

One squad, TG-tagged, insisted on defended Power Station. I understand the importance of Power, when it's the only flag you hold. However, enemy movements suggested a distinct lack of interest in Power. They could've taken Power easily, since the team was spawning at Junkyard anyways.

Praise to one TG squad who was responsive and quick to act. I forgot who, but he went in and did a good job against a walker and increasing resistance.

When I read and relate to posts in 'Remember Remember', and then this happens.. I don't know.. I feel like squads have taken lone-wolfing to a squad level. Squads reacting to commander's orders about a flag about to be taken? TG has gotten that down. Squads reacting to commander's orders to assault a flag? It's either my leadership skills that needs improvement, or SLs' understanding of the chain of command.

I might just be frustrated with that one particular situation.. It might be the lack of sleep.. or that I didn't eat any cookies before playing 2142.. but I want to know if I'm overreacting or if I'm wrong.

I will admit that when the PushJunkyard/CampPower squads refused orders, I didn't push the matter or provide reasoning. Also, I didn't particularly shine when I misplaced an orbital (2142 commanders needs keyboard shortcuts).

I guess I'm begging the question:
How much do we value commander's orders? Do we take it with a grain of salt - a mere suggestion? Commander's intelligence isn't always accurate, Commander's orders aren't always right (or there might be a better solution, or the order is impossible), SLs have a better feel of the local environment.
Or do we take commander's orders religiously? Commander is constantly updated with the global environment (while SLs have to also focus on SM management, combat, etc) and can provide valuable support to the squad via spotting, UAV, orbitals..


Before anyone critiques my abilities as commander, please keep in mind I usually only CO if no one steps up to the plate (I consider the CO to be an excellent resource to SLs). While I am open to improving my abilities, I will probably take CO advice directed AT me in the wrong way.

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Zoraster

Well, I wasn't there, but if the conversation went like this:

Fruv: "Don't push Junkyard. Spawn Power and Attack Eastern"
TGSL: "We need to defend Power and provide a distraction"
Fruv: [Silence]

Then I think you probably need to go the one extra step. To reiterate my point in the Commander's Guide, you need to order, don't waffle.

In other words, if you meet someone who says that, assert yourself:
Fruv: "Negative, TGSL. Push Eastern"

The reason for this is that there's a relationship between SL and Commander. Commander's don't have the same situational awareness, so many times when I'm commanding, I hope my SL speak up about situations like this. Sometimes I'll overrule them. Most the time I'll agree. It's my prerogative, but I do want feedback from my SLs.

IF on the other hand, they said they wanted to defend power and you said "no, push eastern" and they ignored you, then it's a pretty serious instance of ignoring the commander.

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|TG-Mth| Zoraster | .

MrJengles

Mmm I notice a lack of SLers opinions when I command, like even a quick "Yes, good idea". It makes me worry they arn't speaking up when they think it's a bad one.

Of course it could be that I speak too much but I'm working on it XD

Your tactics sounded perfectly fine Fruvous. I would suggest saying it again like Zoraster said, if they disagree point blank then you remind them they have to follow your orders. If they disagree with a reason then you explain very briefly why you see yours as better and that you won't go into further detail in-game so they need to follow the order.

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|TG-Irr| MrJengles - You know you want to say it out loud.

Fruvous

You guys are absolutely right.
I realize I was brash and irrational with this thread, and from this I learned that I should always eat a cookie before 2142ing.

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pred011586

I haven't often taken the CO position, but out of the times I have, I've noticed the best success when integrating myself as SL of the 0th squad. I don't look at my SLs as pieces on a chess board to move around, I consider them as SMs in my squad. Given direct orders is useful at times, but in others that don't require a reaction immediately, it's better to explain your reasoning. Just be careful that you're only talking to the squads that need to hear what you're saying. COing a bunch of SLs is hard, just as proportionally as SLing a bunch of SMs is hard. When you're COing, you can't always expect everyone to respect the decisions you make. Remember that although it's against server rules to disobey a CO, you're not doing yourself any favors by expecting people to understand your thought process.

For instance, did you tell the squads attacking Junkyard that Eastern had a much weaker defense, or did you just tell them to back off of Junkyard? You have to keep in mind the fact that your soldiers aren't just grunts to be bossed around, when you can spare a moment for an explanation, a brief explanation of your thought process behind your decisions to the relevant crowd will not only increase their trust in your decisions, but also help them see a side of the battle they may have overlooked initially.

As a SL, far too often I get COs who simply give direct orders without explanation. One piece of advice I'd like to give to any fledgling CO... SLs are not chess pieces. COing isn't a glorified chess game. As awesome as it may seem to be the supreme commander of your forces, you're not awesome to the point where you're above everyone else. This mentality is extremely difficult to break, and you have every psychiologic tick working against you in breaking that mentality. From COs being on top of the list, to the bird's eye view you have of the battlefield, COs can easily fall into the "I'm above everyone" mentality that makes SLs lose respect in you quickly.

Fruv, some advice for ya. Unless your orders require absolutely immediate attention (these are rarer than you might think), shooting a quick explanation of your thought process after your order will get you a much better reception from your SLs. Prove to them that you're thinking as hard as they are about winning, and they'll respect your command more.

I hope that helps.

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Zoraster

As a SL, I don't mind being treated like a chess piece if my commander is extremely competent and this is his style.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a TG-tagged SL to follow orders without having to walk him through the exact reasons for having done so. Often you're busy as well as the SL, so this type of chit-chat is counterproductive.

That said, I do try and explain my reasons -- if briefly -- if they're unexpected... just so my SLs know that I'm not just throwing orders out willy nilly. Additionally, SLs are almost always inclined to act fast if I give them a reason why they need to act fast.

--
Just as there are different styles of SLing, there are different styles of COing that are valid. I know Zohar has an extraordinarily hands off approach to both CO and SL with sort of a "I'll only give orders if you're screwing up mentality." This is a fine style that works, but it is not my approach as a SL (to some extent it is as a CO).

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|TG-Mth| Zoraster | .

Jakaleel

Commanding is at times like herding geese, it’s frustrating and the geese just get annoyed.

Sometimes it’s a difference of philosophies. To me winning as the commander is the goal and fun. To a SQL defending a flag and holding it all game is boring and dull.
Case in point, a game I commanded a few weeks ago – PAC Tunis 32p full server, Squads 1&2 were defending Power and 3&4 were defending Eastern. Squads 3&4 keep wandering away and had not laid down any mines. We were winning with the enemy bleeding when a buggy rush to eastern took it (the commander was zoomed in trying to take down the walker). Squads 3&4 spend the rest of the game on the outside looking in at Eastern. Squad 1 requested an assault of Junk and squad 2 (without orders) joined in the fun and both were wiped out. During their attempted assault, I ordered both 3&4 to abandon their attacks on Eastern and move to Power to defend our last remaining flag. Squad 4 ignored me and squad 3 argued that they almost had the flag (despite a UAV that showed 12 moving contacts on Eastern). The result was losing all flags and bleeding out for the loss. There was a lively discussion on TS after that round.

When commanding, I too try the hands off approach, and refrain from giving too many orders (or at least the silly and stupid orders) and most orders are verbal - occasional order to plug a hole or stop the rush.

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|TG-21| Jakaleel
SAAW Team
AION Jakaleel C3

Zhohar

This warrants a quick response to defend my stance.
As a squad leader, I manage my squads in a very direct and focused fashion. You are severely misinformed to call my squad leading "hands-off".

My commanding is a different matter.

As a CO, I don't give orders unless a squad is being ineffective. I define ineffective in a broad manner, but it boils down to one simple question: is this squad doing everything it possibly can to help the team?

I have no qualms about giving people orders, but I do believe squad leaders are more fit to make tactical decisions and that it is my job to provide as much intel as possible to let them be effective at that decison making. I believe this process empowers squad leaders to care for the team instead of blankly following orders, I believe it makes them critically examine the situation, and I do believe it encourages a conversation between the CO and the SLs and not a rigid relationship of "order giving/order following".

If I do give orders, I'll explain why and what the squad did wrong, or did not know.

Perhaps I am over-focusing on the "orders" part of the role. I truly believe order giving and enforcing are about 20-30% of my CO time. Most of the time I spend spotting ahead of friendly squads that are attacking, spotting around squads that are defending, informing SLs of empty flags, informing SLs of heavy flags ... just generally relaying intel. Spotting, however, takes up most of my time.

I believe this way of approaching the role makes the team more effective, and that is my goal.

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Fruvous ... couple of things.

1. As Zoraster said, don't be afraid to tell people what you want done. Would you stand for someone taking a sniper kit and running off halfway across the map in your squads? Of course not. Don't be intimidated by people: if someone is not helping the team, tell them to change and why they need to do it, and if that doesn't work, get an admin.

2. I am absolutely serious when I say this: the few times I've really lost my temper have all been when I've had less sleep than normal. I can't over-emphasize the importance of sleep to my patience, SLing skill, shooting skill, and enjoyment of the game.

3. Tell people why you want them to do things, and encourage them to have a conversation with you. Something like:
"Three -- 2 squads moving up on your SW."
"Four, need you back to South Town, we've got heavy on the SW."
...
"Never mind that Four, Three has it under control. Hang around the main road and wait for buggies or recon rushes please."

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Anton Chigurh: People always say the same thing.
Carla Jean Moss: What do they say?
Anton Chigurh: They say, "You don't have to do this."

TheDarkPenguin

On another stance, I would say that your post, Fruvous, was not brash or irrational at all. This topic is one that many threads are created concerning, and typically people can be pretty irrational. Yours was fine though.

I would suggest one thing, if this is actually the case.
This ^^ is my point. . If you never voiced a reason, then that would be usually necessary. There is a fine line between over-reasoning and being non-communicative. Squads need to hear why, but they won't need to hear about every single little thing that goes through your mind and the cookies you ate beforehand. .

Just my thoughts....

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Zoraster

Sorry, I think I wasn't super clear. I more meant you don't micromanage (kits, etc) as a SL. I didn't mean you were an apathetic SL at all.

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|TG-Mth| Zoraster | .

Nine.Thousand

My advice? Command like the dude in the chopper from Black Hawk Down.

Fruvous

Thanks everyone for your posts.

What I'm getting from most of the posts is that:

commanding is hands off: redirect squads to a safer route, spot blips approaching vehicles/flags, call out enemy movements, call out densities of contacts, etc; squads can coordinate themselves.

If you give an order, briefly explain (if only a sentence longer than "getting Junkyard is unfeasible").

I'd like to thank Zhohar, Zoraster, (and a few PMers) who gave more specific advice. For example.. how hard to push the issue, what the issue is (ie. why speed is an issue), and quite notably the issue of sleep (funny how people forget to do that )

There's a small point though with Zhohar's third bit of advice.
In his scenario, Four's explicit purpose is providing immediate support for either flag and defense of the main road. Defense/reaction much simpler than coordinating a multi-squad assault; other than informing which flag needs their support ATM, nothing needs to be said because they don't need to adapt to something as extreme as

"Pushing junkyard is detrimental to the team. Please reorganize, rekit (with the walker in mind), and regroup in the near future at Power. Define your plan of attack, carry out the attack (with only general knowledge of enemy locations via CO spotting), and succeed".
Let alone adding a second squad to the equation.

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