Re: Squad Leader and Pointman

**Greyed** · 08-01-2009, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Cavall

Not to mention having an experienced player up front allows for better first contact and intelligence due to the point man's specific abilities

For the record my specific ability, as a point man, is to turn in to a blue circle with an X in it which declares, "Here there be dragons."

**Fruvous** · 08-01-2009, 05:46 AM

We're perfectly compatible! As a SL, my special ability is turning green circles into blue circles with X's in them!

**ace9419** · 11-06-2009, 11:43 AM

I'm curious where you heard the term point man. In doing squad tactics in the military, the point man is in front while the squad leader is situated in between the team (not listed below in the diagram). It is bad practice to have the squad leader in front because it reality, he is commanding two fire teams, below is just a fireteam.

Unfortunently in battlefield, the max size for a squad is only six where in the real military you have up to about 14 people minimum and then you have two fire teams. Below is an example of where you really should be, again, I am supporting this tactic listed.

TL (aka pointman)
AR GR

RF

TL: Team leader
AR: Automatic rifleman
GR: Grenadier
RF: Rifleman

I do not agree that if you as a squad member had to follow someone who is NOT the squad leader, that the pointman would run off and make his own squad. We are TG, tactical gamers and pointers like this should be taken and practiced.

Below I will list a diagram that would match the actual squad tactics used in the Army and merge it into battlefield 2142.

TL (pointman)
AR GR
RF
SL (squad lead)

AR

Below the squad leader is another squad and I will not list it simply because we only have six members to work with in our squads. What you see is a "squad column", it offers immediate fire in all directions and good security . The trouble with implementing such a tactic is not many players have been in the military so I might advise telling the squad to perhaps get into a triangle formation.

It is good practice to have a pointman due to the spawning factor. Nothing sucks more than having to walk have the map because the squad leader is down. DOWNSIDE: You may lose sight of the pointman unless your whole team is in close together, which they should be anyway, however, there is always the person who wanders off trying to be the hero.

**fuzzhead** · 11-10-2009, 12:54 PM

Its a good topic, dividing into two 3 man fireteams could probably be used to good effect

**Fruvous** · 11-10-2009, 04:06 PM

Pin->Flank.

Usually when I squadlead, I get 1-2 TGers.
Observed behavior:
Pubbies move directly to the enemies
TGers follow squadleader

Exploited behavior:
Pubbies move directly to the enemies (Pin)
Squadleader+friend moves around and attacks from a second direction (Flank)

Of course, it doesn't work all the time - the squadleader needs to judge how long it takes to get to flanking, and how long the pinners can last.

**Zhohar** · 11-10-2009, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by ace9419

In doing squad tactics in the military

I mean no offense to your military training, but the squad dynamics of this video game differ significantly from real life.

First and foremost, dead and wounded soldiers can be revived immediately and restored to a rested, healthy condition.
Second, squad members are able to spawn off a squad leader.
Third, a squad leader can direct his squad even after getting killed.
Fourth, all soldier models look the same and hence players follow the minimap marker of the SL, not his physical body.
Fifth, soldiers run and move very quickly, with nearly infinite stamina.

These are very significant changes, and they have far-reaching consequences. I'm generally very successful with my squads, and I will very rarely not be the pointman. It could be that I'm a decent infantry soldier (decent aim/reaction time/situational awareness), and it could be that I serve as "bait" to focus the enemy's attention whereas the rest of the squad can wipe them and revive me, and it could be that it helps organize my squad as I lead by example ... I won't claim I understand it fully.

But I do know it's effective, and it's not something I would do in real life. Relatively small changes to the environment (rockets/defib) have far-reaching consequences on the mindset best suited to win within that environment.

**Lyramion** · 11-10-2009, 04:33 PM

The principle if a pointman sounds good and has been tried out on multiple opportinities in 2142. But it never really worked out. Most people follow the SL like sheep and have trouble following anything else around.

**SharinganTH1422** · 11-10-2009, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

Fourth, all soldier models look the same and hence players follow the minimap marker of the SL, not his physical body.

I think this is the overriding factor TBH. Having a pointman makes sense tactically for a lot of reasons, but when you're trying to regroup you automatically for the big green number on your minimap and follow it. Plus an urgent SL (as you usually have to be when giving new orders) will probably start running for the objective before he's had time to relay this to the squad. They're not gonna sit around waiting for the pointman to run in front of them - In other words the pace of the game means it's not a tactic that will have a significant effect on your squad's improvement, and it's probably more trouble to organise than it's worth.

**ace9419** · 11-11-2009, 05:21 PM

Fuzzhead gave me the idea of how to assault/ambush. He mentioned divindng a full squad into two fire teams. Example, you and two squad members are at site with a silo knowing there are two guys in the same area, you then tell your other fire team (your other three members) to get opposite of where you are at and on your signal your squad is attacking from two directions overwhelmingly the enemy because you have effectively ambushed them.

With Frivous post on observed newbie bevahvior, there is a distinct difference from the TG server and any other server. If you squad lead on any server you will definitely notice how non-tg members will not stay with the squad but instead go off and try to be a hero.

With Zhohar and game dynamics, I totally agree that all tactics used in the actual military cannot be applied to battlefield 2142 effectively such as the pointman. I could not agree more. I have tried the pointman twice and it works well until someone dies, then you have to take time to regroup which ultimately waste time.

In something unrelated, I have a complaint. In the game primer it says in the 3rd point that the "focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics". In an enitrely different topic I have read, some will use their squad members for suicide missions. Example: Blacknight run up to those 7 guys up there so I can camoflauge myself and run past while you become killed. I dare not to call that a tactic and certainly not one I would boast as a TG gamer. I would call strategy such as that very sub-standard and know the majority of the TG community would partake in strategy rather than hey, run over there even though I know you will get killed so I can camo past them. I know for a fact only a select few do newb stunts like that but to me it takes away from the prestige of being a TG member.

**SharinganTH1422** · 11-11-2009, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by ace9419

In something unrelated, I have a complaint. In the game primer it says in the 3rd point that the "focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics". In an enitrely different topic I have read, some will use their squad members for suicide missions. Example: Blacknight run up to those 7 guys up there so I can camoflauge myself and run past while you become killed. I dare not to call that a tactic and certainly not one I would boast as a TG gamer. I would call strategy such as that very sub-standard and know the majority of the TG community would partake in strategy rather than hey, run over there even though I know you will get killed so I can camo past them. I know for a fact only a select few do newb stunts like that but to me it takes away from the prestige of being a TG member.

You are correct here in that this is considered a suicide tactic and is therefore not really allowed on our server, however sometimes TG folks (including myself) can forget about the no suicide rule when they're caught up in trying to win. I actually think this happens more with this rule than any other because its not so clear cut. E.g. Telling one guy to go and take on 7 guys to distract them - even though you know they're gonna die it's not as explicit as something like bunnyhopping or jihad-jeeping.

**Gorhaut** · 11-12-2009, 10:28 AM

Actually, sacrificing a few people in order to gain a strategic advantage IS an realistic tactic. Comes down to perspective, eg. if your the grunt going to be killed or if your the commander leading the army. The former would call certain attacks suicidal, the latter a strategic move. Most clear cut historic example of that kind of thinking from the top of my head (sitting at work atm) is western front during the later parts of wwi. But you can find that principle applied in any war.

Clear cut suicidal isn't allowed. But as Sharingan says, where do you draw the line? Take carebear as an example. Trying to do an reconrun up to roadblock, calling in the squad and tell them to attack/press on church as a distraction. Suicidal mission (and hence forbidden) or not? Done that both as SL and SM. Sometimes survived it, sometimes not. Personally, I see this as a legitmate tactic.

Or on Belgrade, holding pond/monorail with one squad. If you do it succesfully you can severly cripple the enemy armors ability to press forward hence giving your team an advantage. From the squads perspective it usually means a high causalty ratio. It's good for the team from an strategic pov, but more or less a certain prolonged deathsentence for the squad doing it.

My point, which I'm probably not making very clear is that the line between highrisk missions and suicidal attacks arn't clearcut. But then again, I wouldn't intentionally send 1 guy agains't 8.

**Ashikabi** · 11-12-2009, 11:37 PM

aha this happens in the squads i lead all the time unintentionally. Like we start the game and i tell my squad what kits where to go and issue the command and for some reason theres always this SM actually moving my squad to the position. I dont mind, i actually like it cause then i can focus on plans and tactics. Im a slow thinker, i need to take my time to think of a plan and i cant be attacking and issuing orders and thinking of a plan all at the same time, doesnt work for me. lol.

This tactic is actually very good in my opinion. But the only problem is that u need to find a good person that can move the squad.

**sc1ence** · 11-22-2009, 12:37 PM

Squad leader does not have to take point if they make effective use of waypoints and verbal orders. Having competent squad members that understand your objectives is helpful.

Example:
"We are attacking statue, we will move up the east ramp here (place waypoint) then move to cover here (place another waypoint). I will stay behind cover here (place waypoint) as a spawn location.

When the squad is moving over a meaningful distance, say (follow the waypoints) then just update waypoints every 5-10 seconds. SLs should become competent at placing waypoints without using the map.

**xDementiax** · 12-03-2009, 09:07 AM

When I squad lead I usually stay behind and wait a minute before rushing in.
(although a person who usually signs up to be SL is usually the proactive type of person and as a leader sometimes wants to rush first but shouldn't..)
I always "shout out" on VOIP go to the flag you guys take "point", and I cover.
Your squad members unfortunately are expendable to win the battle. Many know this and won't rush in initially to sacrifice themselves but should work together as a unit and buddy up to revive... working as a group.. not as an individuals.
As Squad Leader my main goal is to be a moving spawn point to win battles and accomplish objectives.
A good squad leader usually ends up with very high marks in revives and supplies and spawns and a very low amount of deaths and sometimes kills.<< but as you get better staying back this increases as you cover your troops in battle.
The key though I've found is if your running a squad of mostly medics is to initially ask all your SM's who their buddy is going to be.
If your squad runs as a group but gets separated at least they are in pairs to revive one an other.
Same goes for gunships when there are two on the map... You rely on your wingman heavily to cover you should you encounter an enemy gunship.. Flying in pairs one high covering the one thats low is optimum.

So think of your squad mate as your wingman when buddying.. One runs in .. the other covers.. The squad runs in the SL covers.
Its good that they chose 6 an even number to be a squad so everyone can run in pairs. Interestingly if you follow stats and you look at a squad of 5 versus 4 sometimes you find the squad of 4 did better because they are forced into the situation of buddying.. and the squad of 5 usually has an odd man out who has a lot more deaths.

**StormTAG** · 01-29-2010, 01:15 AM

Wow. I never really expected that thread to spawn that much discussion. Glad it did. Maybe I'll actually get to come back and play soon. *working on a new computer*

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