Baur Tips - Page 2

Greyed · 08-18-2009, 02:00 AM

This cracks me up. You talk about the virtues of the Voss/Krylov in CQC but fail to notice you contradict yourself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoraster

Krylov - 900 shots/min - 27 damage
Voss - 900 shots/min - 25 damage
Baur - 600 shots/min - 34 damage

(trimming for length)

Quote:

There are reasons why you might think, anecdotally, the Baur is superior in close range firefights. The biggest reason is that sometimes people will be JUST damaged enough that your bullet will kill them. If two people sat firing starting at the same time the bullets would go:

So the point here is that more bullets = better. You've thrown out accuracy above so I presume we're going to accept all the bullets hit? Ok, put numbers behind your chart of shots that shows the voss gets more shots.

1. Voss/Baur 25/34
2. Voss 50
3. Baur 68
4. Voss 75
5. Baur 102
6. Voss
7. Voss

Quote:

So at that point, Voss has shot FIVE times whereas Baur has only shot 3. So if you repeated this situation many times over with people having varying degrees of health, you'll end up with the Baur winning sometimes. But taken in aggregate, the Voss will win out.

But when you add in damage there is no shots 4 and 5 for the Voss being that the finger pulling the trigger is dead. Remember, your damage numbers, your firing sequence.

As has been said, it is the player and the playstyle, not the gun, which has a large impact on who wins any particular engagement. Use the gun that fits your playstyle. Now, can we pleas let this farce die!?

**Zoraster** · 08-18-2009, 12:18 PM

Well, there are a few things about this. First, damage is not actually what those numbers say. I'm not sure the exact relation between damage listed in the charts and in-game damage, but I imagine the damage is modified by the body part hit to reach the in-game damage. So 102 damage does not necessarily translate into 102 in game damage. And 75 damage does not necessarily translate into 75 damage.

Second, even at point blank range (perhaps especially at point blank range?) bullets fired like this miss their targets. Some of this is corrected by skill, but some of this is just the game. Bullets at point blank can actually pass through bodies (the other night reaper and I stood point blank with pistols to gauge damage and about a third would pass through).

---
I don't buy this "it's the person not the gun" argument in these threads. Yes, to an extent this is true: someone who is really good will perform well with either gun. But the question in these threads is never about that. It's about whether a certain person would do better than himself with a certain weapon. Because of this, the "it's the person not the gun" argument only goes so far. It does include "playstyle," but figuring out which weapon suit which playstyle is still a valid topic.

**Mixa** · 08-18-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoraster

I don't buy this "it's the person not the gun" argument in these threads. Yes, to an extent this is true: someone who is really good will perform well with either gun. But the question in these threads is never about that. It's about whether a certain person would do better than himself with a certain weapon. Because of this, the "it's the person not the gun" argument only goes so far. It does include "playstyle," but figuring out which weapon suits which playstyle is still a valid topic.

Well I can note then that when I first met <r.k.> L.E.H.F. it was first time ever I was killed in instant. Only person I've ever seen do it as there is no reaction to it. I'd pick any other player over him if I'd had to take 1on1.

Also hes playstyle supports pushing into action rather than staying back, IC've caught him on open ground scoring 2 hits and then I die, due the fact that he never misses. Ends up with kd of 4 most of the time. Oh yeah and he uses Baur with ping of 150, I'd like to see the same done with Voss.

(Krylov headshot + bodyshot does the same, but I think we're fighting over Baur / Voss here?)

And weren't we supposed to expect that accuracy has no space in this and the shots hit the ''major'' body parts. Damage will be different if you hit some parts of the legs when the person is using heavy armor. If accuracy is noted then its again one + for Baur?

If you read mere facts Voss will place last with almost any ideal 1on1 situation, I know that going prone screws Baur completely and there Voss will beat it. But we're looking the facts here right? No gameplay or player skills should be involved.

Edit: Oh oh, can we have the thread title changed ''Voss vs. Baur''

**Zoraster** · 08-18-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Oh yeah and he uses Baur with ping of 150, I'd like to see the same done with Voss.

Yeah, it's certainly possible that ping differences bring differences in weapon choice... it's not something I've studied much, but I do imagine the ping would somewhat reduce the advantage of a faster rate of fire on the krylov/baur.

Quote:

And weren't we supposed to expect that accuracy has no space in this and the shots hit the ''major'' body parts. Damage will be different if you hit some parts of the legs when the person is using heavy armor. If accuracy is noted then its again one + for Baur?

Yes, but I think Greyed's point was that the Baur reaches the "magic number" of 100 faster than the Voss. It's an understandable point, but because chart damage is not identical to in-game damage, it doesn't quite work.

Quote:

If you read mere facts Voss will place last with almost any ideal 1on1 situation, I know that going prone screws Baur completely and there Voss will beat it. But we're looking the facts here right? No gameplay or player skills should be involved.

I don't agree with this statement. I've already shown that damage per second is greater with the Voss, which is the most important stat for these discussions. My point of Voss/Baur, Voss, Baur, Voss, Baur, etc. was only to show why individual standoffs will often come out differently if health is different.

**Mixa** · 08-18-2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoraster

Yeah, it's certainly possible that ping differences bring differences in weapon choice... it's not something I've studied much, but I do imagine the ping would somewhat reduce the advantage of a faster rate of fire on the krylov/baur.

My point was that he still kills people instantly even though hes trigger speed will be 0.1 s slower than a person with ping of 50 (most of US) players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoraster

Yes, but I think Greyed's point was that the Baur reaches the "magic number" of 100 faster than the Voss. It's an understandable point, but because chart damage is not identical to in-game damage, it doesn't quite work.

The chart damage does not vary enough to prove this point, if I shoot a guy at 10m range like the normal 1on1s happen they do not bug out or go through, only thing you can do is play with hitboxes, which is very questionable in any case. I agree that sometimes the server bugs out and gives bullets ''zero damage'', in any case this is rare and doesn't happen often enough for it to matter in this at all.

Chart only has 2 variables: A) Leg shot while target is wearing heavy armor
and B) shot is a headshot

I've tested the shot damage and I've never got a result where a guy gets different damage from a bullet unless its these two. I know that some counters leave you with wacky health levels, but the in-game health counter bugs out sometimes, you might have noticed this if you use light armor and you get shot by sniper. It looks like the shot got you to less than 50% off, but actually second shot from same weapon will kill you.

EA didn't know how to build proper hit boxes thats why...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoraster

I don't agree with this statement. I've already shown that damage per second is greater with the Voss, which is the most important stat for these discussions. My point of Voss/Baur, Voss, Baur, Voss, Baur, etc. was only to show why individual standoffs will often come out differently if health is different.

Yes but this thing is completely trusting in the chart, as we have so far. I don't see what is your point here? Baur has excellent change of scoring those 3 hits if you know the weapon, and that is all the user needs. With Voss you couldn't simply beat it because your damage per second is higher if the weapons have exactly the same ideal sircumstances, Baur will kill you first.

In fight where Voss would get all the proper shots and Baur would do the same, Baur would win. And that is how its on the paper, and that is why no one should claim anything against Baur with mere damage per second. I'm annoyingly pursuing after this fact until all the damn Baur haters give up and admit that the weapon is atleast equal to Voss. Or atleast get off with the ''omg someone uses Baur attitude". Just because I'm unable to give tips how to use some weapon I'm not turning it to hate thread am'I ?

These are all just facts, they aren't lies or what I think of the weapon. Besides, I think Voss is excellent weapon, its easy to use and I can run around shooting people from hip while pulling back and ending the guy who is going for revive with left over bullets, suitable for many things and I end up using it when I'm not up for ''the demanding Baur''.

**Zoraster** · 08-18-2009, 04:23 PM

I tested it. I'm wrong, and you're right. If you can get all three bullets to hit while holding it down, you should win with the baur.

**Mixa** · 08-18-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoraster

I tested it. I'm wrong, and you're right. If you can get all three bullets to hit while holding it down, you should win with the baur.

Allright thank you.

I'm sorry for being rough with this, tired to this same topic and tired cos of sleepiness

/All good/

**Zoraster** · 08-18-2009, 06:00 PM

oh no, that's fine. I didn't think you were too "rough" or anything. I hate being wrong, but I want to know the right answer more than I want to be not-wrong.

I still think that DPS is a better measure for practical application, but it still stands that if you can land those three shots, the baur will come out on top, assuming 76+ health points to start with (also if the other person has between 51-68 health).

It does explain why you said having a box out allows an extra hit. Assuming a headshot [which is damage*2 apparently) and two body shots (my most frequent way of killing someone with full health with a voss, I think), if they have a box out, there's a somewhat good chance that it'll allow for the person to survive. It won't happen even the majority of the time (3 shots in a burst with a voss takes ~.2 seconds ... anyone know how fast a single box on the ground takes to heal one point?), but it probably will happen frequently enough for it to matter...

Of course that begs the question of how health boxes work. Do they (a) heal at certain times in the game, whether someone is hurt or not or (b) do they start healing at certain intervals when someone is hurt? In situation (a) the above paragraph is true. In situation (b), the above paragraph will only be true if there's a pause before the last bullet hits.

Mercenary90 · 08-19-2009, 03:57 AM

Do you guys know how the damage model in 2142 works?

My hypothesis is that the location where the bullet hits imparts a modifier upon the damage of the bullet. For example, torso hits would be *1 (34 damage with Baur) while headshots would be *2 (68 damage) and limb shots *0.5 (17 damage). Am I wrong?

**Zoraster** · 08-19-2009, 12:11 PM

When we tested, we couldn't find any difference between a limb and torso shot. they both were 34 for legs and torso with the Baur. We didn't try with heavy armor which I think Mixa suggested protects legs more.

It's possible there are limb hit boxes, but if so we couldn't find them on our legs or arms.

Of course, aiming at the legs makes it far more likely you'll miss!

Deterhek · 08-19-2009, 02:43 PM

Sorry for going off topic here, but can ayone tell me any Krylov tips? I really cannot seem to hit anything with it. Even less so than the Baur.

**Mixa** · 08-19-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoraster

When we tested, we couldn't find any difference between a limb and torso shot. they both were 34 for legs and torso with the Baur. We didn't try with heavy armor which I think Mixa suggested protects legs more.

I tested it but I got no results of damage change what so ever. Claim that hevy armor takes the damage off from legs is based on someone else's post + the fact the heavy armor goes into legs / shoulders.

Either I didn't hit the right spot or heavy armor has no use.

And about the healing with med packs, I've got yet to try it at shorter distances but from about 20m the rate which bullets hit from Voss lets you heal, basically I don't see it happening at very point blank as the damage is instant death when damage engine counts it.

**Zoraster** · 08-19-2009, 03:26 PM

Yeah, at this point I'm actually a bit confused if heavy armor does ANYTHING other than slow you down. We got the same damage readings no matter where we shot.

**LogicalHarm** · 08-19-2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoraster

Yeah, at this point I'm actually a bit confused if heavy armor does ANYTHING other than slow you down. We got the same damage readings no matter where we shot.

I think heavy armor might be more resistant to explosions?

I read somewhere that if wearing heavy armor and have full health, an apm won't kill you. Probs not true though.

**Zoraster** · 08-19-2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicalHarm

I think heavy armor might be more resistive to explosions?

I read somewhere that if wearing heavy armor and have full health, an apm won't kill you. Probs not true though.

At this point, I'd need to actually participate in an experiment that showed one did more damage than the other to believe it.