Re: Killing Vehicles

**spiff913** · 10-19-2009, 02:11 PM

I often fire rockets at vehicles when they are below 50% health.

**LordKelvin** · 10-19-2009, 05:16 PM

Contrary to Zhohar's analysis, I believe engineers are the most effective means of combatting vehicles. Isolated engineers are nothing more than a nuisance, most of the time. But 2-3 engineers working in unison are fearsome, especially if one of them is manning a Rorsche. The key is to stagger shots on aware enemy armor so that the pressure is never relieved, and they are always under constant bombardment. Against unaware armor, simultaneous fire is the most effective.

Also, engineers are infantry, and can hide inside and behind things much better than an enemy piece of armor. A group of rocks or a building corner is the perfect place for an EMP ambush.

An opposing armor squad is usually the least effective means of combatting another piece of armor. These engagements are usually protracted exchanges from long distance, while both pilots are repaired by repair monkeys. Inevitably, the person who loses is always the one that gets flanked by enemy engineers while distracted by the enemy armor. The single exception to this are gunships, which are outrageously lethal against every sort of ground armor if the TV gunner is good.

Buggy doom is moderately effective but requires a good driver and quick-thinking, VOIP-coordinated engineers.

CO-EMP-Orbital is incredibly ineffective against a piece of armor that knows not to stand still more than a second or two. It will freak out most drivers and cause them to withdraw (and cause them major lag), but it rarely is better than a deterrent. It is best employed against a stationary APC or walker that commands high ground, like on Belgrade Statue or OpShingle's Command.

My 2 cents.

**DmitriMerkov** · 10-19-2009, 05:37 PM

I think Zhohar mainly meant that individual engineers are mostly ineffective, not that engineers as a whole are. After all, Zhohar has a video of him cloaking, rushing behind an APC, and having two squad members spawn in and simultaneously Philum the APC from behind (I think it was on Fall of Berlin, but I can't remember).

Now, I would say that the problem with engineers is often that you need two or three to really exert any control over an area (a single engineer can hide, fire, maybe get hits from behind, reload, be sneaky, etc., but to actually keep an area clear of vehicles, you need to have a few engineers working together). The problem with having too many engineers in a squad is that you now have fewer medics. You need at least one support to keep your engineers armed and lethal, so you need to cut back on assault/medics. That leaves with fewer revives, and more vulnerable to enemy infantry.

**LordKelvin** · 10-19-2009, 05:43 PM

True. However, a tactic I would like to see is having one squad be dedicated to engineers. This way, none of the assault squads need to lower their effectiveness by bringing an engineer, and the all-engy squad (plus a support) can focus on totally destroying the enemy's armor.

**DmitriMerkov** · 10-19-2009, 05:46 PM

I think that could have some potential, as long as the map isn't too big. I mean, it seems to me that if you're playing on a large open map, a squad of engineers would take a long time crossing from one hot spot to another (this could also be an advantage of the armor squad: they make a better quick-reaction force).

Would you just use engineers and a single support, or would you also include one medic for revives?

**LordKelvin** · 10-19-2009, 05:52 PM

I was thinking this would be effective more on medium sized maps like Belgrade or Verdun. The big armor maps like Shuhia, Suez, even Sidi and Minsk... they are too big, as you said. As for the squad makeup, I would make the SL a medic, 4 engineers, and a support. That way a squad member can grab the SL's kit to revive, but you still have enough engineers to deal with any piece of armor you engage.

**DmitriMerkov** · 10-19-2009, 06:03 PM

This could be interesting. It would force the enemy to use infantry ahead of their armor, but if you could co-ordinate well enough with another assault squad, you could do some real damage. If you or someone else makes the squad, I'll join. See how it works in practice.

**ThePenguineer** · 10-19-2009, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

People like to blame others for their own failing: blaming a CO for not taking out enemy armor is the #1 way people reap self-righteous moral high-ground from a bad round.

Yes.

I kept having an SL curse at me the other day for "not taking out" the enemy walker. That, and our team didn't have any engineers spawned in. Or anyone trying to EMP lock it. Or effectively using the Rorsch against it.

EMP+OS is not automatic divine intervention against armor. Against good pilots, using it is sometimes a waste of assets.

**Britt** · 10-19-2009, 08:44 PM

I get angry when the enemy armor is active and the commander drops his orbital on a big bunch of infantry instead. The orbital strike should be used on armor first, then infantry.

**Mercenary90** · 10-19-2009, 08:58 PM

What do you guys think about RDX Recon?

**Zhohar** · 10-19-2009, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Zoraster

Engineers can be effective, especially when combined with a support with emp grenades.

You may have looked at my post before my edit. It's my assumption that the hostile armor is piloted by smart TGers. Armor that comes within EMP range is either lonewolfing or Rambo-ing -- neither a hallmark of a smart armor pilot.

But I disagree that it's not worth it against other armor.

It's not an entire waste of time, but in view of other things it could be used for -- yes.
I'd much rather use an OS to slow down a TG wolfpack as it rushes an empty flag while it's left empty, than to spend it on an APC that's far off. I'd rather save the EMP OS for the walker spawn on Belgrade, and take it down the moment it spawns than to spend it on an APC and have friendly armor be at a disadvantage.

The APCs may get back up fairly quickly, but that time can be crucial in getting your infantry into positions where they're not absolutely decimated by the APC.

Very much so true. As a Berlin PAC CO, first priority at round start is to EMP/OS their armor while it's still empty. Difficult to pull off, but definitely worth it.
I also look for a brief period of time the first time the APC stops at round start after moving to Crossroads -- the pilot is focusing on gathering a picture of the situation and is vulnerable for a brief second.

I don't think buggies of doom are very effective, even against Tanks. I think they're fun diversions, and I enjoy trying them on otherwise boring (to me) maps, but I don't think they're ticket positive affairs.

In the first-hand view of the situation, tickets aren't made. It takes 3 to do buggy doom, half or more often die, and the armor is usually piloted by 1.
But, the tickets saved by removing that armor out of play, and the allowance for infantry push on flags (for example, gaining a 2nd flag on Tunis 32p) is not as easily quantified.

**MrTango** · 10-19-2009, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Britt

Oh, and for the love of all holy things in all the heavens of the world, stop shooting your rifle rockets at the armor. It does no damage at all, and it makes you (and the engi who can kill it standing next to you) a huge target for tanks and APC mortars and other hurting things.

I don't make it a habit to hunt them or anything, but I have (a measly, I know) 76 kills vs the walker. I would estimate that 60-65 of those came by way of assault rockets. Sometimes in only 2 or 3 shots. There are a few weak spots where the rockets do some decent damage, particularly in the knees.

**HellHarry** · 10-19-2009, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

It's not an entire waste of time, but in view of other things it could be used for -- yes.
I'd much rather use an OS to slow down a TG wolfpack as it rushes an empty flag while it's left empty, than to spend it on an APC that's far off. I'd rather save the EMP OS for the walker spawn on Belgrade, and take it down the moment it spawns than to spend it on an APC and have friendly armor be at a disadvantage.

Hmmm OS on Berlin recharge faster then/as fast as the apc spawn and EMP usually takes 30 sec more to be charged on that map after taking out the apc. The thing is their apc can easily farm infantry from safe distance from your walker. But the EU walker can hardly kill anything if the infantry are not on top of him on the map which mean your armor should be around to help at that point. Also long range walker kill can easily be revive but reviving someone that just felt the wrath of the noob canon is not always possible.

Making sure their apc get only a 30 sec window to break your team is way better then having it defending a flag.... pushing statue while the apc is there is not the best thing to do and the apc can be backed by the roch and it will be impossible for your armor to do anything to it. As a pac CO I would rather OS their apc. In the end if the walker is being a bitch to your armor two smart driver could take it out with apc EMP and walker anti vehicle missile. Not so easy to do on a apc that will always stay as far as it can.

(BTW I remember you doing the OS on walker on a berlin round where I was CO for EU. Just so you know the squad in our apc didnt have a smart driver as they stayed so far behind they couldnt do anything. I even tried to get them out of there but they would do it for a sec and then pull way back again. Wasn't armor denial that put then there as most of the time your armor were not on the same side as he was.)

**SharinganTH1422** · 10-20-2009, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by LeFrancoy

Just a side note... Sometimes I use my rockets to divert the walker/tank’s attention to me to allow engies/supports to get in position. So I shoot then move, shoot then move, etc.

If you have rocks or crates to work with, you can lure the driver and have him think you are a noob begging to get blown to pieces, when in reality your messing with his concentration.

It must be said though that good armor players are usually not alone and will outright ignore you and/or let the infantry take you down... But on isolated armor, it can work (Albeit on very specific situations). Church flag on Verdun is a good place for that.

Nice thinking. You may enjoy this:

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...eadership.html

This was one of the things that has stuck with me for a long, long time since pretty early on when I became a TG member. These sort of tactics make TG what it is.

NB: I'm not advocating always firing rockets at a vehicle, and Francoy pretty much got it right on the money - you need great cover, great squad coordination and a vehicle without support and in the open for something like this to work. Just thought I'd bring some history to the thread that some may find interesting.

Apologies for the slight derail.

**-Str!ker-** · 10-20-2009, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mercenary90

What do you guys think about RDX Recon?

On small maps they can do a good job, but it really depends on the pilot of the armor. Situations where armor is always moving or have infantry support really cripple the recon RDX. Also better to use on lone pieces of armor moving for an "easy" flag cap.

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