Re: Support weap unlock Ganz HMG - was it all worth it?

**SharinganTH1422** · 08-21-2009, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Nine.Thousand

Here we go: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXdaraqAek4[/media]

This video lets you give the statement that the Ganz is better than the LMGs in "every conceivable way"?

Firstly this is for the Shuko only, not for the Bianchi. Second this only shows the crosshairs moving in, but not necessarily the accuracy of the bullets (how close they are to centre of crosshairs). This also doesn't show how they fire at the hip, the number of bullets or reload times as Det pointed out. What about the RoF? I've always found overheat times kinda irrelevant since you should be bursting anyway, although when I use it I personally get much more overheats occurring for some reason (note, I have actually - I think - got more play time with the Ganz than the LMGs. I used to go Support a lot and spent way too long tryna get this gun to work for me, and it simply refused).

If you want to lie prone and shoot at people at long-mid range who'll get instantly revived, go for it. If you want to be a moving MGer who can actually contribute to mid-close range battles while on the move and without having to lie still for 5 minutes before taking a shot, I suggest you get to know my friends Shuko and Bianchi very well. The Ganz is arguably better at sitting still and defending mid-long range sight-lines (Catwalks on Gibby), but not by much at all.

**Nine.Thousand** · 08-21-2009, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by SharinganTH1422

Please point us silly people towards this enlightening video oh fantastical one.

Four posts up, dude...

Originally Posted by Mercenary90

I believe the Ganz is only competent in killing if you are prone/prepared beforehand and are covering a relatively narrow choke point.

The increased accuracy of the Ganz (when the crosshair is fully "contracted") is marginal and thus only very useful at longer ranges anyway, and you'd have to get up and run away to evade rockets in that case, thereby forcing you to prone down and put down bursts again to get your accuracy to an effective level, by which time a competent assault may have killed you, forced you to run, or closed distance.
The increased damage of the Ganz over the LMGs is only useful when firing accurately and effectively, which requires time to set up, leaving you open to attack for the above reasons.

The LMGs can inflict damage faster due to their quicker spread reduction and thus shorter setup time. In a squad, the LMGs can function competently at the same ranges that assault rifles are most effective at.

Shotguns do not suffer from spread at all, and the tactics their wielders must use to close distance may either lead to great death at the bullets of assault rifles or great win with the loving spread of buckshot. The usage of the shotgun in a squad is best suited to offensive, up close and personal squads or in tight confines such as buildings.

But in my opinion, both are much better than the Ganz.

Did you even see the video? The difference at the beginning is marginal and the Ganz overtakes the LMG accuracy in less than 1 second... and after about 2 seconds it's almost twice as accurate.

Originally Posted by Deterhek

The Ganz's bullet spread is just too great for me to take seriously when on offense. You need a good 2-3 seconds to get better accuracy than the LMGs, even at point blank range, in which time the enemy player will most likely kill you. I would literally rather take a sniper rifle to a CQC fight than the Ganz, and seeing as most TG squads are (unfortunately) geared towards offense, that makes the Clark and LMGs much more useful.

EDIT: Reaperassault likes the Clark. He has a kdr of over 6.5, I think we should trust his judgement.

Again, look at the video. Less than 1 second to match + exceed the LMG accuracy, initial spread is marginal.

**Deterhek** · 08-21-2009, 10:12 PM

@Sordavie: Do you mean the kdr or that he likes it?

Originally Posted by Reaperassault

thats how I like to do all my killing, I think its very tactical

This doesn't exactly say that he likes the Clark in particular but we were talking about the Clark so I assume he means this, although it may not be limited to this weapon.
As for the kdr just look up the soldier "R.E.A.P" on the EA website. 6.65, its amazing I know.

**Nine.Thousand** · 08-21-2009, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by SharinganTH1422

This video lets you give the statement that the Ganz is better than the LMGs in "every conceivable way"?

Firstly this is for the Shuko only, not for the Bianchi. Second this only shows the crosshairs moving in, but not necessarily the accuracy of the bullets (how close they are to centre of crosshairs). This also doesn't show how they fire at the hip, the number of bullets or reload times as Det pointed out. What about the RoF? I've always found overheat times kinda irrelevant since you should be bursting anyway, although when I use it I personally get much more overheats occurring for some reason (note, I have actually - I think - got more play time with the Ganz than the LMGs. I used to go Support a lot and spent way too long tryna get this gun to work for me, and it simply refused).

If you look at the gun stats, the Shuko is equal to or superior to the Bianchi in every field. Also this isn't taken while prone, this is taken while standing. The bullets do VASTLY more damage than the LMGs do and are considerably more accurate which defeats the RoF issues (people argue the Baur is equal to or arguably better than the Voss - the damage difference for the Ganz/Shuko is even greater and the Ganz is more accurate while the Baur is less. The Ganz is the clear winner). If you have more overheat issues with the Ganz that's clearly a personal issue as they are demonstrably identical.

Originally Posted by SharinganTH1422

If you want to lie prone and shoot at people at long-mid range who'll get instantly revived, go for it. If you want to be a moving MGer who can actually contribute to mid-close range battles while on the move and without having to lie still for 5 minutes before taking a shot, I suggest you get to know my friends Shuko and Bianchi very well. The Ganz is arguably better at sitting still and defending mid-long range sight-lines (Catwalks on Gibby), but not by much at all.

This is at a range of 50 meters, there's plenty of leeway to match mid-range battles. I know you like the Bianchi and if you feel more comfortable with it fine but you need to look at the statistics because the Bianchi is quite simply the worst MG available.

**sordavie** · 08-21-2009, 10:19 PM

The kdr

**Deterhek** · 08-21-2009, 10:23 PM

http://battlefield.ea.com/battlefiel...&PID=175224281

**sordavie** · 08-21-2009, 10:51 PM

Ah okay, I thought you were talking about his clark kdr.

**Deterhek** · 08-21-2009, 11:05 PM

Oh, no, but I guess that would also be a good measure.

**SharinganTH1422** · 08-22-2009, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Nine.Thousand

If you look at the gun stats, the Shuko is equal to or superior to the Bianchi in every field. Also this isn't taken while prone, this is taken while standing. The bullets do VASTLY more damage than the LMGs do and are considerably more accurate which defeats the RoF issues (people argue the Baur is equal to or arguably better than the Voss - the damage difference for the Ganz/Shuko is even greater and the Ganz is more accurate while the Baur is less. The Ganz is the clear winner). If you have more overheat issues with the Ganz that's clearly a personal issue as they are demonstrably identical.

Well all of my arguments so far have been based solely on mine and other peoples' personal experiences, so I took your advice and decided to find a place that let me compare the stats of the weapons, and I'm happy to say, they support my view

.

Looking at the deviation stats there's a lot of a stuff I'm confused about, but one thing I see is that standing and crouching, the LMGs and Ganz have identical deviation, while deviation at zoom is far less with LMGs. So I have no idea what's wrong with you're experiment, but something is.

Also note the far greater RoF (900) of the LMGs when compared to the Ganz (600 - that's 50% more bullets being fired in the same amount of time with the LMGs), and what's even more interesting, the time taken to kill when shooting at the torso is quicker for the LMGs, but only by a fraction of a second (at all other areas - e.g. head, extremities - The LMGs and Ganz are identical). So this means that the LMGs do kill quicker (if only by a small amount and at a particular area, but fractions and small margins are what make the difference in a pretty much balanced game), while they also (according to you) overheat at the same time and have a far larger clip. I'm not so sure about some of the deviation stats, so I won't comment on accuracy too much - although most of them seem to be in favour of the LMGs or equal - but the main problem that I have seen and read about is the Ganz's inaccuracy.

Originally Posted by Nine.Thousand

This is at a range of 50 meters, there's plenty of leeway to match mid-range battles. I know you like the Bianchi and if you feel more comfortable with it fine but you need to look at the statistics because the Bianchi is quite simply the worst MG available.

My favourite is actually the Shuko, but I like to think that my favourite weapon may not always be the best weapon. This unfortunately does not apply for the Ganz.

**Nine.Thousand** · 08-22-2009, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by SharinganTH1422

Well all of my arguments so far have been based solely on mine and other peoples' personal experiences, so I took your advice and decided to find a place that let me compare the stats of the weapons, and I'm happy to say, they support my view

.

Looking at the deviation stats there's a lot of a stuff I'm confused about, but one thing I see is that standing and crouching, the LMGs and Ganz have identical deviation, while deviation at zoom is far less with LMGs. So I have no idea what's wrong with you're experiment, but something is.

Haha yeah, uhh... not sure what to say. I hate to break it to you but there's nothing wrong with the experiment. You can see it plain as day in the video. Just like with all weapons, the bullets land "randomly" within the area of the targeting reticle. I'll admit that perhaps my experience differs because I do all my shooting with the MGs standing and not crouched.

Originally Posted by SharinganTH1422

Also note the far greater RoF (900) of the LMGs when compared to the Ganz (600 - that's 50% more bullets being fired in the same amount of time with the LMGs), and what's even more interesting, the time taken to kill when shooting at the torso is quicker for the LMGs, but only by a fraction of a second (at all other areas - e.g. head, extremities - The LMGs and Ganz are identical). So this means that the LMGs do kill quicker (if only by a small amount and at a particular area, but fractions and small margins are what make the difference in a pretty much balanced game), while they also (according to you) overheat at the same time and have a far larger clip. I'm not so sure about some of the deviation stats, so I won't comment on accuracy too much - although most of them seem to be in favour of the LMGs or equal - but the main problem that I have seen and read about is the Ganz's inaccuracy.

Yeah, a lot of people complain about the Ganz inaccuracy. With that said, and I am certainly not addressing you or anyone on this board, but by-and-large most people are stupid and anything coming from someone anecdotally should be ignored if not backed up with hard evidence to support their statements. Of course, there is a positive correlation between the experience of the person delivering the anecdote and the anecdote's accuracy which must be considered.

The fraction of time you mention with the kill rate is so marginal as to be irrelevant. So what it comes down to is do you want your damage done in a greater number of bullets, or fewer? I, personally, would prefer max damage per bullet for a few reasons.
1) If my target manages to escape, in all likelihood they will have received more damage (as each bullet delivers a greater payload)
2) Kills on wounded targets come faster
3) When playing the pop-up-from-cover game (which is what I prefer to do if I need to fight in CQC), the number of times you must hit your popping target decreases and gives you a considerable advantage. It also requires YOU to pop up less frequently and thus increases your survivability. For people that like to rush into CQC and dance around their targets, the Shuko has a definitive advantage. However, if you're going to be fighting like that you should be taking the Clark.

As for the clip issue, the Ganz has enough bullets (if you include the "wasted" bullets required to warm up the crosshair) to kill 5 soldiers and severely wound another. Couple that with your ability to re-arm yourself and the differences in clip-size are irrelevant (I usually reload with the Shuko and Bianchi when I have around 100 bullets left, anyway).

**ninkybob** · 08-22-2009, 08:43 PM

Here's what I've found out about the Ganz.
The higher damage and slower rate of fire allow for an excellent weapon at medium to long ranges. If I have enough time to get the reticule warmed up to a reasonable diameter I can blast away at almost anything (you should see me on pubby servers with this thing xD). A longer range gives me this time and protection (chances are the target won't notice that you're shooting at them until bullets start hitting because of the size of the reticule).
The default MGs fire much faster, which allows for the reticule to shrink faster, however the weapon does overheat faster and run out of ammunition faster (in the case of only the Bianchi, I've found that the Shuko does not run out of ammunition at all xD). The lower damage of these lighter weapons also makes it so that a higher number of bullets are needed to kill the target, not necessarily a good thing considering the relative inaccuracy of the weapon type. The faster firing rate of the weapon, however, makes it infinitely more useful when firing at short to medium ranges, because I do not have to wait as long for the reticule to shrink and for bullets to start hitting home, giving my opponent less time to react while I am warming up the weapon.

**SharinganTH1422** · 08-22-2009, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Nine.Thousand

Yeah, a lot of people complain about the Ganz inaccuracy.

^ Quoted because you need to read this again.

Originally Posted by Nine.Thousand

With that said, and I am certainly not addressing you or anyone on this board, but by-and-large most people are stupid and anything coming from someone anecdotally should be ignored if not backed up with hard evidence to support their statements.

Thing is, I just came from a thread where you told me that I needed to draw on personal experiences to improve myself, which I whole-heartedly agree on. Now you say that people are stupid and their opinions and experiences should not be trusted.

Originally Posted by Nine.Thousand

The fraction of time you mention with the kill rate is so marginal as to be irrelevant. So what it comes down to is do you want your damage done in a greater number of bullets, or fewer? I, personally, would prefer max damage per bullet for a few reasons.
1) If my target manages to escape, in all likelihood they will have received more damage (as each bullet delivers a greater payload)
2) Kills on wounded targets come faster
3) When playing the pop-up-from-cover game (which is what I prefer to do if I need to fight in CQC), the number of times you must hit your popping target decreases and gives you a considerable advantage. It also requires YOU to pop up less frequently and thus increases your survivability. For people that like to rush into CQC and dance around their targets, the Shuko has a definitive advantage. However, if you're going to be fighting like that you should be taking the Clark.

Dude, seriously? All of this means absolutely nothing since the time taken to kill statistics were either the same or marginally higher for the LMGs, so although it takes less bullets with the Ganz, if you're firing for the same amount of time and all the bullets hit (and because their being shot from a ganz, they won't) then the damage would be identical or higher for LMGs.

I'm rambling a bit because I'm not quite myself right now so:

e.g. you say

"1) If my target manages to escape, in all likelihood they will have received more damage (as each bullet delivers a greater payload)"

However, although each bullet delivers a greater payload, the higher RoF means you would've hit more bullets, leading to roughly the same amount of damage being done.

**Math_Magician** · 08-22-2009, 11:11 PM

I think this is like the Baur vs. Voss, Zeller vs. default ind of thing. I think that it's really the person's playing style that dictates which gun he likes.

**Deterhek** · 08-22-2009, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Math_Magician

I think this is like the Baur vs. Voss, Zeller vs. default ind of thing.

Except that the defaults are obviously better than the Ganz for most players who play Support.
Kind of like the Zeller VS Defaults, Zeller is big and shiny, defaults are better.

I think that it's really the person's playing style that dictates which gun he likes.

True true, but just because a player likes a certain weapon does not mean it is the best. Your favorite weapon is the Zeller, for example.

**Math_Magician** · 08-23-2009, 12:01 AM

Yes but you can't say any gun is the best, because that's in your opinion. Everyone has different opinions, so each gun for them is the best.

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