Disobeying CO orders

Fehmart · 12-15-2006, 11:06 PM

Maybe a week or two ago, I was SLing as EU on Suez Canal, and I decided that we would defend Oil Station (the point right next door to the PAC base). Our squad successfully held the point through the round, until the last few tickets, destroying or forcing the reroute of enemy armor and gunships.

I don't remember when, but Inner Bridge Lock was captured about halfway through the map, and the CO ordered all squads back to retake the point. As the CO's assets were all still intact, and I saw every other squad at Outer Bridge Lock, AND due to the lack of sufficient transport (the jeep spawns were continuously destroyed, or taken by others on the team), I decided to continue to hold our point, as the PAC seemed content on sending their vehicle assets at us, instead of forcing the issue at other points. As a result, we received constant radio commands to "follow orders", and never received any asset support.

So, in summary, is it OK for SLs to disobey orders if they feel that they're serving more of a purpose doing something else?

**Gillespie** · 12-15-2006, 11:18 PM

Depends. What's the big picture?

Take for example a Titan round as commander that I just had during on Sidi Power Plant during our Titan Night. 1st Squad had a squad leader that vocally disagreed with every order I gave him. I needed him on the ground instead of the enemy Titan, but he kept on attacking the Titan. I finally got him to come to our Titan to defend it. Nothing going on there... okay. Fine, I sent him to the ground with the explicit instructions not to stray from the Silo I assigned him, as I needed a full squad on hand to make it back to the Titan should the enemy decide to attack it. That silo was the closest to my Titan's position.

Well, lo and behold, the enemy starts sweeping through our Titan. I call him back to defend it, and he bitches that he's got mines and EMPs and a defense set up at the silo and that another squad will have to move to defense (even though after a quick sat scan, I see no enemy moving towards his silo).

All the other squads were either in full defense mode at their assigned silo or too far away to make a difference.

The squad leader could've moved to make a difference, but decided to refuse. So we lost.

Sometimes your commander has a better view of the big picture. Elaborate your situation and if he still orders you to move, then move.

**Gillespie** · 12-15-2006, 11:21 PM

Incidentally, the squad leader in question decided to make a point or something and immediately applied for commander the next round ("Man, I can do things better than he did!"). We lost. I should've asked Bommando to kick the dude, but it was so late in the round that ultimately it wouldn't have mattered.

Point is, the commander position is a tough role. Don't give your CO crap when he wants you to move somewhere. There no magical "I Win" commander button, and the best Battlefield 2142 strategy can be beaten by the troops on the ground. Don't openly incite disobedience of orders (as he and a member of his squad were doing).

Drizzid · 12-15-2006, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fehmart

Maybe a week or two ago, I was SLing as EU on Suez Canal, and I decided that we would defend Oil Station (the point right next door to the PAC base). Our squad successfully held the point through the round, until the last few tickets, destroying or forcing the reroute of enemy armor and gunships.

I don't remember when, but Inner Bridge Lock was captured about halfway through the map, and the CO ordered all squads back to retake the point. As the CO's assets were all still intact, and I saw every other squad at Outer Bridge Lock, AND due to the lack of sufficient transport (the jeep spawns were continuously destroyed, or taken by others on the team), I decided to continue to hold our point, as the PAC seemed content on sending their vehicle assets at us, instead of forcing the issue at other points. As a result, we received constant radio commands to "follow orders", and never received any asset support.

So, in summary, is it OK for SLs to disobey orders if they feel that they're serving more of a purpose doing something else?

No matter what game it is here at TG, communication is the key to all our games here. You should have gotten on comms and informed the CO for your reasoning of not following his orders. Once the CO understands why you are ignoring his orders, then he will decide to leave you there or move you out. If he moves you out then you need to follow that order no questions asked.

The CO position is tough but the CO doesn't see everything that is going on and needs that type of communcation from his squad leaders to make sound tactical decisions.

If the CO didn't have a headset then he shouldn't have been COing. But you could have tried to type a message to get him to understand if voice comms weren't an option.

**Barracuda_Magoo** · 12-16-2006, 03:34 AM

I try to follow all orders, but occasionally I get one that's so dumb, I have to disobey. About a week ago I was SL'ing Camp Gibralter on the PAC team (the assaulting one). I managed to sneak past the Toll Station early and my squad was slowly fighting our way past Central Camp (I think that's the name) towards Ruins. Then I got an order from the CO and compulsively accepted it. After doing a double-take, I noticed it was a move order directing us to a point north-east of Toll Station. The commander wasn't talking, and I considered that order to be retarded, so I just had my squad keep attacking the back flags.

I usually follow orders, even if I don't agree with them, but that one was just too much.

**Tarenth** · 12-16-2006, 05:41 AM

Saddly some people form squads simply because they don't want to get kicked. They then end up as squad leaders and wander around either ignoring or straying away from their designated orders. I actually like commanding, though I admit I'd like it a lot more if I could talk over VoIP and get a response from my SLs. Even if I play the silent CO, its nice to get the opinions and plans of the SL in your command. If someone is planing on taking and holding a point then its pretty much a given they should be ordered there unless there is pressing need elsewhere.

Unless you have a two way dialoge between the people you command and the people giving the orders (this goes for CO to SL and SL to SMs) the average player will suffer from action orientated ADD. They hear fighting and they want to rush out to take part in the action. Being able to tell them why you want them to dig in and pitch a tent helps instead of hoping they follow you intuitively.

If your CO is giving the knee jerk reaction to protecting their base of operations then I believe it falls to the squad leader to do a situation check and see if what they ordered is really needed. Are you holding position against constant attack in order to maintain a key choak point? Are you on the 'front lines' and repulsing wave after wave of assaults? Are you sitting on the old front roasting marshmallows? Has your attack against the enemy line met repeated failures? Are you running in guns blazing as they sit up on a hill and rain walker rounds on you?

You then have to either ask or guess with the situation the CO sees. Is the attack you keep repulsing just a single squad doing a holding action as others sneak around your flank to take a position in the rear? Are you being assaulted on two flanks with the danger of having a point isolated? Is there some ashat sitting in your UCB with your Walker spawn camping your CO? (Yes, I know its against our server rules, but I've had that happen to me. Squad of recons put a beacon down in our UCB and stole our walker. They then proceeded to spawn camp and destroy the resources and I had to fight them solo because everyone was having fun at Command Center on Cerbere Landing)

My personal CO foilble is trying to convince SLs that assaulting a fortified position for the 12th time will still result in failure. Sometimes I want them to pull back and let the other team overextend itself while I reposition people to hold the line and push a team in through the back door. Again, action orientated ADD. If you don't bring the fight to the enemy then they will try to bring the fight to you. Once they're occupied on your front lines hit them from the rear with a sneaky team and isolate them.

Fehmart · 12-16-2006, 10:14 AM

When I received the orders from the CO in question, I did inform him that we were destroying all enemy armor assets from their base (from looking at the mini-map, hover tanks that disappeared from the map were showing up at our CP), and that we were rather removed from the action. He did not have a headset, but from the repeated "follow orders" comms we received, I certainly hope he heard me.

Now, anyone who is unfortunate enough to end up in a squad I lead knows that I will often stop and request orders from the CO, AND follow them. I'm just saying that one time was a rare exception, due to the circumstances.

BHack · 12-16-2006, 01:16 PM

I'm not sure why, but for some reason the CO position on our server never seems to attract TG players. 9 times out of 10, the person commanding doesn't have a mic. 6 times out of 10, he is giving orders so obviously dumb that it looks like he wants our team to loose.

I attribute this to the fact that COing a winning team in 2142 is actually a good way to get a lot of points, so it attracts pubs. Since I hear bad things about the interface from you guys, I guess that is why no TG wants to do it.

**Gillespie** · 12-16-2006, 02:36 PM

I'm trying the position out more and more.

Still haven't won any rounds, but we did get close one time.

Rick_the_new_guy · 12-16-2006, 03:56 PM

Good topic,

As mintioned in the SL pledge to their platoon http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html, the SL who feels that their orders are "retarded" should get a commo link to conform these orders.

The CO may have made a mistake when putting down an away point marker.

However, once you get a verbal or written conformation about the orders after you have double checkd them, like Drizzid said, comply.

The chain of command must be respected.

Rick_the_new_guy · 12-16-2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fehmart

When I received the orders from the CO in question, I did inform him that we were destroying all enemy armor assets from their base (from looking at the mini-map, hover tanks that disappeared from the map were showing up at our CP), and that we were rather removed from the action. He did not have a headset, but from the repeated "follow orders" comms we received, I certainly hope he heard me.

Now, anyone who is unfortunate enough to end up in a squad I lead knows that I will often stop and request orders from the CO, AND follow them. I'm just saying that one time was a rare exception, due to the circumstances.

At ease, your teamskills are not being questioned.

This is an excellent topic.

Obeying the chanin of command is a great system in warfare, however, obeying orders blindly can be a disaster. Proper communication will resolve the vast majority of issues. If the orders are conformed, should be glad it is a video game and not RL.
Ohh, and plus you can issue a commander kick vote, that could get them thinking, although, I do not want to discourage someone form trying.

perry · 12-16-2006, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHack

I attribute this to the fact that COing a winning team in 2142 is actually a good way to get a lot of points, so it attracts pubs. Since I hear bad things about the interface from you guys, I guess that is why no TG wants to do it.

The times that I have tried commanding I've always been outranked... and it ends up being some dude that sends the entire team after one flag. Wish I could kick people for being knuckleheads

**Thanatos** · 12-17-2006, 12:54 AM

This is probably one of the hardest situations you can find yourself in as an SL on this server...harder even than attempting to take a flag back from one of our in-house squads

I think the general opinion on this situation is to open a dialogue with the commander, as suggested previously. However, if he does either ignore / override you like he did that night, then I believe the right course of action is to obey the order, even though it's not tactically sound. It's part of what makes TacticalGamer unique.

We have a responsibility to respect the chain of command, even if we don't agree with the orders. You can tell your squadmates that these are 'commander's orders', to ensure they don't think you're a lunatic but at the end of the day, we need to set the example that the chain of command WORKS here at TG, all the time, regardless of what the commands actually are.

It's quite a wrenching decision and it may leave a bad taste in your mouth - I mean, we all like to win at some level, or we wouldn't be playing adversarial games like BF2142. But we have to put TG's image first.

Fehmart · 12-17-2006, 12:04 PM

"Orders are orders", then. Thankfully, those would have been digital lives I was sacrificing. I don't think we could have even safely retreated to the next CP without getting run down by the advancing enemy.

**Eroak** · 12-17-2006, 11:37 PM

I got about 16 hours of CO time on me. I played most of teh time on non-TG servers and about 10 times on TG.

After I read the line that many TG'ers dont like to CO much.. I might look at CO'ing more.

Now if someone on TG doesn't follow my orders I believe they have a good reason and let it be. If I need them "now" Then I'll get on the comms and see whats going on. I have faith in my SL's in letting them decide whats best. They are on the frontlines. I do get the knee-jerk reaction when the last flag needs to be capped to win the game, but when someone is after a key point.. I go on the comms and get a TG squad to get the job done.

12-15-2006, 11:06 PM	#1 (permalink)
Fehmart Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Riverside, CA Age: 24 Posts: 429	Disobeying CO orders Maybe a week or two ago, I was SLing as EU on Suez Canal, and I decided that we would defend Oil Station (the point right next door to the PAC base). Our squad successfully held the point through the round, until the last few tickets, destroying or forcing the reroute of enemy armor and gunships. I don't remember when, but Inner Bridge Lock was captured about halfway through the map, and the CO ordered all squads back to retake the point. As the CO's assets were all still intact, and I saw every other squad at Outer Bridge Lock, AND due to the lack of sufficient transport (the jeep spawns were continuously destroyed, or taken by others on the team), I decided to continue to hold our point, as the PAC seemed content on sending their vehicle assets at us, instead of forcing the issue at other points. As a result, we received constant radio commands to "follow orders", and never received any asset support. So, in summary, is it OK for SLs to disobey orders if they feel that they're serving more of a purpose doing something else?

12-15-2006, 11:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
Gillespie Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 1,056	Re: Disobeying CO orders Depends. What's the big picture? Take for example a Titan round as commander that I just had during on Sidi Power Plant during our Titan Night. 1st Squad had a squad leader that vocally disagreed with every order I gave him. I needed him on the ground instead of the enemy Titan, but he kept on attacking the Titan. I finally got him to come to our Titan to defend it. Nothing going on there... okay. Fine, I sent him to the ground with the explicit instructions not to stray from the Silo I assigned him, as I needed a full squad on hand to make it back to the Titan should the enemy decide to attack it. That silo was the closest to my Titan's position. Well, lo and behold, the enemy starts sweeping through our Titan. I call him back to defend it, and he bitches that he's got mines and EMPs and a defense set up at the silo and that another squad will have to move to defense (even though after a quick sat scan, I see no enemy moving towards his silo). All the other squads were either in full defense mode at their assigned silo or too far away to make a difference. The squad leader could've moved to make a difference, but decided to refuse. So we lost. Sometimes your commander has a better view of the big picture. Elaborate your situation and if he still orders you to move, then move. __________________ <ArmA Information/SOPs> <ArmA Admin Team> <TG Req. Reading>

12-15-2006, 11:21 PM	#3 (permalink)
Gillespie Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 1,056	Re: Disobeying CO orders Incidentally, the squad leader in question decided to make a point or something and immediately applied for commander the next round ("Man, I can do things better than he did!"). We lost. I should've asked Bommando to kick the dude, but it was so late in the round that ultimately it wouldn't have mattered. Point is, the commander position is a tough role. Don't give your CO crap when he wants you to move somewhere. There no magical "I Win" commander button, and the best Battlefield 2142 strategy can be beaten by the troops on the ground. Don't openly incite disobedience of orders (as he and a member of his squad were doing). __________________ <ArmA Information/SOPs> <ArmA Admin Team> <TG Req. Reading>

12-16-2006, 03:34 AM	#5 (permalink)
Barracuda_Magoo Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 23 Posts: 384	Re: Disobeying CO orders I try to follow all orders, but occasionally I get one that's so dumb, I have to disobey. About a week ago I was SL'ing Camp Gibralter on the PAC team (the assaulting one). I managed to sneak past the Toll Station early and my squad was slowly fighting our way past Central Camp (I think that's the name) towards Ruins. Then I got an order from the CO and compulsively accepted it. After doing a double-take, I noticed it was a move order directing us to a point north-east of Toll Station. The commander wasn't talking, and I considered that order to be retarded, so I just had my squad keep attacking the back flags. I usually follow orders, even if I don't agree with them, but that one was just too much. __________________

12-16-2006, 05:41 AM	#6 (permalink)
Tarenth Join Date: May 2006 Location: California Posts: 2,159	Re: Disobeying CO orders Saddly some people form squads simply because they don't want to get kicked. They then end up as squad leaders and wander around either ignoring or straying away from their designated orders. I actually like commanding, though I admit I'd like it a lot more if I could talk over VoIP and get a response from my SLs. Even if I play the silent CO, its nice to get the opinions and plans of the SL in your command. If someone is planing on taking and holding a point then its pretty much a given they should be ordered there unless there is pressing need elsewhere. Unless you have a two way dialoge between the people you command and the people giving the orders (this goes for CO to SL and SL to SMs) the average player will suffer from action orientated ADD. They hear fighting and they want to rush out to take part in the action. Being able to tell them why you want them to dig in and pitch a tent helps instead of hoping they follow you intuitively. If your CO is giving the knee jerk reaction to protecting their base of operations then I believe it falls to the squad leader to do a situation check and see if what they ordered is really needed. Are you holding position against constant attack in order to maintain a key choak point? Are you on the 'front lines' and repulsing wave after wave of assaults? Are you sitting on the old front roasting marshmallows? Has your attack against the enemy line met repeated failures? Are you running in guns blazing as they sit up on a hill and rain walker rounds on you? You then have to either ask or guess with the situation the CO sees. Is the attack you keep repulsing just a single squad doing a holding action as others sneak around your flank to take a position in the rear? Are you being assaulted on two flanks with the danger of having a point isolated? Is there some ashat sitting in your UCB with your Walker spawn camping your CO? (Yes, I know its against our server rules, but I've had that happen to me. Squad of recons put a beacon down in our UCB and stole our walker. They then proceeded to spawn camp and destroy the resources and I had to fight them solo because everyone was having fun at Command Center on Cerbere Landing) My personal CO foilble is trying to convince SLs that assaulting a fortified position for the 12th time will still result in failure. Sometimes I want them to pull back and let the other team overextend itself while I reposition people to hold the line and push a team in through the back door. Again, action orientated ADD. If you don't bring the fight to the enemy then they will try to bring the fight to you. Once they're occupied on your front lines hit them from the rear with a sneaky team and isolate them. __________________ My sanity is not in question... It was a confirmed casualty some time ago. \|TG\|Tarenth Battlefield 2142 Mirra World of Warcraft Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.

12-16-2006, 10:14 AM	#7 (permalink)
Fehmart Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Riverside, CA Age: 24 Posts: 429	Re: Disobeying CO orders When I received the orders from the CO in question, I did inform him that we were destroying all enemy armor assets from their base (from looking at the mini-map, hover tanks that disappeared from the map were showing up at our CP), and that we were rather removed from the action. He did not have a headset, but from the repeated "follow orders" comms we received, I certainly hope he heard me. Now, anyone who is unfortunate enough to end up in a squad I lead knows that I will often stop and request orders from the CO, AND follow them. I'm just saying that one time was a rare exception, due to the circumstances.

12-16-2006, 01:16 PM	#8 (permalink)
BHack Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 1,636	Re: Disobeying CO orders I'm not sure why, but for some reason the CO position on our server never seems to attract TG players. 9 times out of 10, the person commanding doesn't have a mic. 6 times out of 10, he is giving orders so obviously dumb that it looks like he wants our team to loose. I attribute this to the fact that COing a winning team in 2142 is actually a good way to get a lot of points, so it attracts pubs. Since I hear bad things about the interface from you guys, I guess that is why no TG wants to do it. __________________

12-16-2006, 02:36 PM	#9 (permalink)
Gillespie Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 1,056	Re: Disobeying CO orders I'm trying the position out more and more. Still haven't won any rounds, but we did get close one time. __________________ <ArmA Information/SOPs> <ArmA Admin Team> <TG Req. Reading>

12-16-2006, 03:56 PM	#10 (permalink)
Rick_the_new_guy Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 29 Posts: 1,789	Re: Disobeying CO orders Good topic, As mintioned in the SL pledge to their platoon http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html, the SL who feels that their orders are "retarded" should get a commo link to conform these orders. The CO may have made a mistake when putting down an away point marker. However, once you get a verbal or written conformation about the orders after you have double checkd them, like Drizzid said, comply. The chain of command must be respected. __________________ (PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member (CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader (LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.html

12-17-2006, 12:54 AM	#13 (permalink)
Thanatos Join Date: May 2003 Age: 27 Posts: 284	Re: Disobeying CO orders This is probably one of the hardest situations you can find yourself in as an SL on this server...harder even than attempting to take a flag back from one of our in-house squads I think the general opinion on this situation is to open a dialogue with the commander, as suggested previously. However, if he does either ignore / override you like he did that night, then I believe the right course of action is to obey the order, even though it's not tactically sound. It's part of what makes TacticalGamer unique. We have a responsibility to respect the chain of command, even if we don't agree with the orders. You can tell your squadmates that these are 'commander's orders', to ensure they don't think you're a lunatic but at the end of the day, we need to set the example that the chain of command WORKS here at TG, all the time, regardless of what the commands actually are. It's quite a wrenching decision and it may leave a bad taste in your mouth - I mean, we all like to win at some level, or we wouldn't be playing adversarial games like BF2142. But we have to put TG's image first. __________________ New to TG? Read the BF 2142 Standard Operating Procedures and Server Rules Here!

12-17-2006, 12:04 PM	#14 (permalink)
Fehmart Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Riverside, CA Age: 24 Posts: 429	Re: Disobeying CO orders "Orders are orders", then. Thankfully, those would have been digital lives I was sacrificing. I don't think we could have even safely retreated to the next CP without getting run down by the advancing enemy.

12-17-2006, 11:37 PM	#15 (permalink)
Eroak Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In a AC-130 shooting 105's at you. Age: 28 Posts: 3,139	Re: Disobeying CO orders I got about 16 hours of CO time on me. I played most of teh time on non-TG servers and about 10 times on TG. After I read the line that many TG'ers dont like to CO much.. I might look at CO'ing more. Now if someone on TG doesn't follow my orders I believe they have a good reason and let it be. If I need them "now" Then I'll get on the comms and see whats going on. I have faith in my SL's in letting them decide whats best. They are on the frontlines. I do get the knee-jerk reaction when the last flag needs to be capped to win the game, but when someone is after a key point.. I go on the comms and get a TG squad to get the job done. __________________ Do you know your roots? R.I.P. Lost Fires - June 16, 2001 - June 18, 2008 An EverQuest guild - We miss you Faylon

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