Xen

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to form an official TG Supporting Member Squad just something of an experiment.


Just to give anyone a heads up who joins any of my squads. I tend to defend alot more then most. I will even ignore a Commanders Orders to attack when my squad is fully engaged at the Flag we are defending. Now I know I'll probablely get some flak for that but here's the explianation why I disregard commanders orders sometimes.

1) We have less tickets and need to hold what we've gotten. I don't know how many times the flag I'm defending will be the last place standing. We may still lose the game but my squad's objective was completed.

2) If the order is completely undoable. Example: Berlin, attacking team. We hold the checkpoint flag and the enemy is pouring out of roadblock to get checkpoint back. Then the squad get's a order to hit command post all the way at the back. Some might say this is a doable request, but how many time have you seen the attacking team try and sneak north of Roadblock and get wiped out cause there's a squad at the other end of that building? This would only work if two squads pushed hard south of the roadblock to get them to "turn thier heads" away from the north. And if your going to commit that much to get a squad behind them. You might as well send the north squad in and get roadblock. Never understood commanders that want to fight two front wars.

3) My squad has been repelling the enemy consistantly. Why move something that's working? I think this come down to commanders just right clicking and moving squads without realizing what they are doing. I think verbal communication between SL and Commander needs to be worked on. I'll explain. Commander: Alpha Spuad what is your Sitrep? SL: We are repelling 1 squad and support vehicles at Flag Y. Commander: can you disengage and move to Flag X? SL: Negative we are entrenched moving us would compromise Y Flag. Commander: Advise me when your free of engagement. SL: Roger that. This may seem to take longer but more information is transfered and the commander knows the Alpha Squad is too busy defending to push forward. The commander then could have Bravo Squad spawn at Y to take X.

4) The Commander is completely incompedent. (usually a Pubbie that takes the reins)

Now with that said. 3 Assault/medics, 1 Eng, 1 support, 1 recon is what I like to see in my squad. This way I can pair a medic with each of the other kits and if the medic drops, the guy next to him just swaps kits to revive. pretty much buddy up and keep your buddy alive while your in my squad. This isn't to say that you shouldn't revive others. But if paired up group of squad members die, the other pairs are not to try and revive. The reason is, more then likely we would lose more tickets trying to rivive them then having 2 of the squad respawn. Now I know some would disagree, but I don't know how many times I've watched 3 medics run out into enemy fire and die trying to revive 1 person only to revive them die and then the one they revived dies again. That's a total of 4 tickets instead of 1.

Also, take any vehicles in the area we are defending. So we don't have resources used against us. But, if the Commander is wanting one of the vehicles we are using, let them have it. When it blows up we will get it back.

If we are on the attack. I try not to a direct route to the target. I'd rather take a few extra minutes and have suprise then just start meat grinding.

Finally, if you want to work more formally in my squad send me a PM and I'll start locking my squads and start sending invites. And as always feel free to critique this good or bad.

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Iamthefallen

Maybe I'm picking on choice of words, but "ignore" definitely seems like the wrong thing to do.

Tell the commander what you're doing and why, he may come back with the same order again as he sees the big picture and has a plan for your squad that you're not aware of. Or, he might not know what you're doing and will accept your explanation and cancel the order.

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Bommando

As Fallen says, make sure you express this by voice first. Even when I have had a CO without VOIP, if I express my reason for wanting to stay put, they will be fine with it 90% of the time. Just ignoring a CO without negotiating your intentions first will result in a swift kick.

If your CO is clearly incompetent, then you are within your rights to do what you feel is more valued for your squad and team. Just make sure you have exhausted other possibilities.

Xen

yea I think ignore was abit too strong. let me rephrase it. I tend to cancel orders from the commander. Especially if the commander doesn't even bother asking why I declined his orders.

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Bommando

Let me say that you should keep the order 'in play' until you discuss it. Declining an order on the spot is not the way to go.

If I receive a dubious order, I leave it 'active' until I communicate with the CO. If he responds appropriately, even if I don't agree with the order, I will follow it. Meaning that if the CO is talking and explains why he wants you to perform the action, you need to follow it. If it's completely ridiculous, then you have some recourse, but if it's just something you don't feel like doing, then you should not turn it down. It's not up to the CO to chase you down when you decline an order. It's up to you to explain why you would not agree.

I must say I'm concerned with how you are phrasing your actions. That you 'tend' to cancel orders sounds like you make a habit of it. This should be an exception rather than the norm. If a CO is giving orders in the first place, it's likely he has a plan and will respond if you have any other ideas.

Remember, we have a chain of command for a reason. If you believe you could do a better job as CO, you should be CO.

Xen

Odviously you did not read my post. If the CO is talking to the Squads explaining what's going on then I usually don't have an issue cause there's a plan and we squads know what our part of that plan is. Read #3 all over again and you'll hopefully see what I was talking about.

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Thanatos

I think the point that Bommando was trying to make is that while you're having the discussion in #3, leave the order up on your screen (so that it says Order from Commander, yes/no) instead of saying 'no' first, and then discussing it.

It's more of a courtesy to your CO to leave the command open while debating it. If that's what you're doing, then I think you and Bommando are on the same page in that regard.

We are all cool with the concept of SL's taking initiative and deciding on the best course of action. The SL does have a good view of the action on the ground. At TG though, we must respect the chain of command. If you question an order to your CO, and the order still stands, even if they don't have a mic and just re-issue the order or hit 'Page Up', you must carry it out. Respecting the chain of command is part of what makes this community what it is. We are responsible for setting an example, and showing the structure works on our server.

If the game does turn out to be a loss, you can always take the CO chair in the next round - I've done this a couple of times.

If you aren't on TeamSpeak already, keep that open while you're playing BF2142 and you can voice concerns over selfish / incompetent commanders to admins in real time. Give some solid evidence of a poor commander and they may get kicked.

On another note - I like the buddy system you describe for your squad composition. There was another thread where it seems 4 medics plus 2 specialty kits is the ideal loadout. Having 3 medics seems like a good compromise so that you can have all 3 of the specialist kits in your squad. This will be useful in the non-infantry maps.

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Crux

I do think defense is an under-utilized squad assignment. But, generally speaking flat-out ignoring the Commander isn't going to help the big picture much.

Grunt 70

Commanders should command and SL's should carry out orders...even if you think it unwise...someone else said it (was it Bom?) that there is a chain of command for a reason. Individual SL's picking and choosing what orders to follow just doesn't seem to follow the rules of the server or of TG. Someday you'll have a commander who knows his stuff and he will issue what you see as an unwise order to save a flag or a flank that sacrfices your squad. In the heat of the action he doesn't have time to deal with your denial, you fail to act and then team gets wiped out. I've seen it happen as i bet most of us have.

I don't command alot (and don't own 2142) but I've done my fair share of SL'ing in BF2 and it's mods. I would never disobey or cancel an order from the commander without laying out a solid defensible reason as to why, and then, only while enroute to complete the current order. I hope we'd see that reciprocated on a consistent basis.

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|TG-22nd|Grunt



"When force is necessary, it must be applied boldly, decisively, and completely. But one must know the limitations of force; one must know when to blend force with maneuver" - Leon Trotsky

Xen

I guess the whole point I was trying to make out of this is, there's been a lot of times on many maps that I have been SLing, I never hear the commanders voice once the whole game. Now, those commanders that do not have a Mic or whatever, shouldn't be taking the CO position. If they can not communicate a plan to the squads even at the beginning, we have a minute thirty worth of waiting around before the map starts. There are commanders that do talk, Mugsy, Will, and a few others, I have no problem following their orders cause I know what they want done and I can give them a heads up if there's a problem on following it. In the end this whole thread is about Communication and the Lack of it between Squad and CO and Squad to Squad. Communication in the Squads themselves has always been good. And you can only leave up an order for so long before it times out.

I'll put this example out as and see if this explains all of my points I was trying to make. Map is Subai Tusia <however that map's spelled>, has the large round command center at the top of the hill, with freezers and Offices Flanking each side. Your Squad is in offices repelling a squad and a Walker, APC and a tank from the hill. You have not heard anything from the commander verbally. In your squad is 4 assualt/medics, a support and a recon, even the commander can see that. The commander is waiting on his OS and Emp Strk. You get a silent order to take Central Command. (I.E. the comander just clicks on your Squad and then right clicks the flag to send you there.) You voice your situation but get no response. Do you move and most likely lose office as you get ground to bits, only to have to respawn at East mountain pass to now retake offices or do you stay at offices and maintain your defense?

Now, I personally would stay at Offices and either request a squad that can deal with the Armor or wait until I could aleast match the firepower. I.e. wait for the walker and apc to respawn to try and balance the odds out alittle.

Hopefully, some can atleast understand why I would do so. there's no direct communication at all, you don't know what the other sqauds are doing you just have a Icon on your map telling you to go. Sorry but I would rather conserve tickets then waste 6 or more on what seems to be nothing more then a random order.

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chaf3d

I see the point you're trying to make. If you've had ABSOLUTLY no contact with Commander, Team Type him, and ask if he has one. Type out why? before agreeing, or disagreeing.

Its been said 'Chain of Command' lots of other places on the forums, but I remember also reading that the Squad Leader has a more concrete situational awareness of the cap point, as where the Commander has a more full picture awareness. The big thing is that you need to be 100% sure that your CO is a nut job before declining.

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