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  1. #61
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kappa View Post
    With that said, I feel like the 80% cap is something being pushed on by those that are coming from PR/ARMA.
    Stop this, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crux View Post
    The goal is to find a happy middle ground between hardcore and vanilla with regards to infantry-infantry interaction. We don't want people to be bullet sponges, but also don't want to die from a passing mosquito's sneezing on us.
    The changes had nothing to do with HC or standard. Only what we felt was the best for TG.

    What other servers do... up to them. This is TG. Our product is unique.
    Last edited by Skud; 11-12-2011 at 07:09 PM.
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  3. #62
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Skud View Post
    Stop this, please.
    I believe I am allowed to have a opinion, and it was just that. It wasn't malicious in form or repetitious. I even thanked those who gave constructive feedback on what I initially inquired. With that I find it unclear what the intentions of your post were because it seemed that I made it clear that my question had been answered and the issue tabled.
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  5. #63


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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Crux View Post
    I love the changes we've made for infantry-infantry interactions. But we need to recognize we have fundamentally altered the infantry-vehicle balance in the process. Now maybe there's nothing that can be done about it, and if that's what it is, that's what it is. But I'd appreciate it if we could at least acknowledge that i *might* be a problem due to the changes instead of just telling people who are dedicated to altering tactics and trying to deal with threats that we should just suck it up and try to do something about it. That's not a productive conversation.
    The chopper itself isn't all that powerful. Rockets are very weak against infantry, and a full salvo of rockets on a tank will merely disable it. Rockets also leave you vulnerable when lining up a proper salvo. The main problem is the gunner seat. With thermal optics, a chopper gunner can shoot infantry like fish in a barrel. It is insane. Not only that, but the gun does quite a bit of damage to vehicles. Add that with the ATG missile which is always doing maximum damage from a top-down hit, and an unhindered chopper can easily rack up 40+ kill streaks in the gunner seat no problem.

    Another issue with choppers, is taking them down. Depending on the map, this can be really easy or really hard. Jets offer an annoyance to choppers, but it takes a very skilled jet pilot to take out a chopper in one pass. Most choppers will have time to land and repair. Mobile AA will absolutely destroy choppers if the driver knows what he is doing. Stingers can either annoy or disable a chopper, but rarely kill it, unless the chopper pilot isn't very good. Not only that, stingers can easily be flown over, as they have very poor range.

    I don't think choppers are overpowered, but there is a disparity of skill between using a chopper and killing it. It usually takes less skill to fly a chopper and more skill to take it down. Also, jets and stingers are not very hard counters to choppers. Mobile AA and other choppers are. If your team doesn't feel like using their chopper or mobile AA to counter, then the enemy chopper is going to rule the skies.

    Tanks are not overpowered. They have the potential to be, but since so many people run engineer class (which IS overpowered) there is always more than enough AT rockets flying around to keep them in check. A good tank pilot backed by 1-2 other people is a force to be reckoned with, which he should be, because that's the combined power of 3 people and a tank in coordination. I do think that tanks should be changed around to make them more interesting, perhaps lowering repair rates on torches and splitting the main gun into AT and AI ammo types. Right now the tank feels like whack-a-mole carnival game, where there's very little strategy or skill in using it. Any competent player that grabs the tank and an engineer buddy is guaranteed to be at top of the score charts.

    Unfortunately, a lot of these problems are something that has to be fixed either in a custom mod, or by DICE themselves. I think a lot of these problems has to do with BF3 being designed as a shallow console game (BFBC2), and not a true in-depth PC game(BF2).

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  7. #64
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    I think Crux has a point here. How can you change the way that infantry takes damage but not do anything to change the way vehicles take damage? That is completely altering the balance of the game.

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  9. #65
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Skud View Post

    The changes had nothing to do with HC or standard. Only what we felt was the best for TG.

    What other servers do... up to them. This is TG. Our product is unique.
    Bollocks. They had everything to do with HC and standard. Because we felt standard wasn't best for TG, and HC was too much. And the middle ground felt right. You don't need to be so antagonistic - people are allowed to express their opinions and do so in a polite fashion. Wouldn't kill you to return the favor.
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  11. #66
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kappa View Post
    I believe I am allowed to have a opinion, and it was just that. It wasn't malicious in form or repetitious. I even thanked those who gave constructive feedback on what I initially inquired. With that I find it unclear what the intentions of your post were because it seemed that I made it clear that my question had been answered and the issue tabled.
    It is only divisive to keep bringing up the whole "PR/ARMA/POE guys want x"

    That has nothing to do with BF3. BF3 is it's own game. We can draw some experience from past BF games, but really...

    PR is not even considered a BF2 mod at this point. Sure, it's a mod of BF2, but if you look at BF2 and look at PR the only similarities are some textures and a few sounds. It is a total conversion, to the extreme... If you introduced a new player to PR and did not tell them it was a BF2 mod, I'd be willing to be they would not even know it's a BF2 mod. They may guess, after a while, but it's hardly a mod. It's a separate game entirely. Been that way for years.

    ARMA has absolutely nothing to do with BF3. Two different games entirely, two different audiences.

    POE 2 played very similarly to BF2. Same look, feel, etc. Was a total conversion mod but was very familiar to any BF2 player.

    If you want to compare BF3 to BF2 that's cool (BF3 is a sequel to BF2 [for better or worse]). 2142, alright - but that was a futuristic game (a fantastic one at that). Hard to compare a game set 100_ years into the future with one set in our modern setting.

    Bottom line - stop labeling parts of TG. "PR players do/want x"

    Divisive and silly. We're all here for the same reason.
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  13. #67
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    The basis of my opinion was only to compare more simulation style FPS to BF3 and inquiring on the reasoning behind the recent changes. I never predicted anyone to get "bent" or emotional by my statement. Furthermore, I have stated previously that I do understand the changes after receiving some good feedback, but I do believe what does need to be addressed is the imbalance you'll receive by essentially nerfing infantry, but keeping armor the way it is.
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  15. #68
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by HiTest View Post
    First, that was semi sarcastic.
    Second, you should take cover then make the plan of dealing with the threat cause you may not be in a squad that has AA equipped.
    I know you were being sarcastic. As was I, sort of. I definitely didnt mean to stand in the open and take it like a man. AS I run like a little girl for cover when armor or aircraft come directly in my direction. Then I figure out how I am going to stop or at least slow them down, and since I pretty much play exclusively engie with squad explosives perk for extra mines, I usually have the tools to deal with them. I have even shot the pilot out of a couple chopper with RPG/SMAWs this last week(as I am finally figuring out their flight speed).

    Crux, I am sorry you took that as a jab at you personally, as I was right there with your squad as we all were trying to keep that chopper down. I only dropped him twice, AFTER you all had softened him up(in fact I was picking up ammo from the bag on top of the hill, and it was not from my squad, it may have been yours). AND I got a couple disables, only to watch him fly out of range back to the ship for repairs. It is very disheartening to see him fly off while on fire, only to have him back in 30 seconds. BUT that is part of that game we play, if the aircraft were weak, the pilots would be screaming that the stingers are OP. In DC(DesertCombat) it was really easy to drop aircraft with those stingers as they were basically a rail-gun and you only had to get the timing down. I wish these stinger could also dumb fire straight instead of having to get tone, especially when good pilot/gunner teams usually both have flares, which means it is almost impossible to bring them down.

    My post was intended more on point toward the server population, as we were not the only ones complaining in chat about the constant fire we were taking from the chopper. I observed many people who were just hiding in the "hardened building" at D, as we were all being pummeled by the chopper(and the infantry on the hill above Delta). I didnt mean that HiTest was hiding either, as he was sitting in the WIDE OPEN firing his mortar a couple rounds earlier (I couldnt believe that Badger had not killed him as he passed by him, twice!). My point is that players need to adapt to the threat, for example... just because I always play assault does not mean that I cant change to engie to help rid the area of the 3 tanks that keeping watch over the area. We cant just say, "Well, I play support, so the chopper is not my problem, someone else needs to take it out." Know what I mean. Again, sorry if you think I was attacking you, I should have added a "IRT" before the rest of the post.
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  17. #69
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kappa View Post
    Okay, so I understand and agree with the majority of the changes except for one. Why are we being capped at 80% health? I suppose I want someone to expand on the need for that.
    Read all about it: http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...xperiment.html

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  19. #70
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Skud View Post
    The changes had nothing to do with HC or standard. Only what we felt was the best for TG.
    Really? Because I remember reading

    Quote Originally Posted by FBmantis View Post
    As for the reduced health. 80% is halfway to hardcore so it is a temp step down to see what that feels like. There have been calls to check out reduced health on one server and I have a feeling myself it will feel better.

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  21. #71
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by ANGELofDEATH View Post
    Crux, I am sorry you took that as a jab at you personally, as I was right there with your squad as we all were trying to keep that chopper down. I only dropped him twice, AFTER you all had softened him up(in fact I was picking up ammo from the bag on top of the hill, and it was not from my squad, it may have been yours). AND I got a couple disables, only to watch him fly out of range back to the ship for repairs. It is very disheartening to see him fly off while on fire, only to have him back in 30 seconds. BUT that is part of that game we play, if the aircraft were weak, the pilots would be screaming that the stingers are OP. In DC(DesertCombat) it was really easy to drop aircraft with those stingers as they were basically a rail-gun and you only had to get the timing down. I wish these stinger could also dumb fire straight instead of having to get tone, especially when good pilot/gunner teams usually both have flares, which means it is almost impossible to bring them down.

    My post was intended more on point toward the server population, as we were not the only ones complaining in chat about the constant fire we were taking from the chopper. I observed many people who were just hiding in the "hardened building" at D, as we were all being pummeled by the chopper(and the infantry on the hill above Delta). I didnt mean that HiTest was hiding either, as he was sitting in the WIDE OPEN firing his mortar a couple rounds earlier (I couldnt believe that Badger had not killed him as he passed by him, twice!). My point is that players need to adapt to the threat, for example... just because I always play assault does not mean that I cant change to engie to help rid the area of the 3 tanks that keeping watch over the area. We cant just say, "Well, I play support, so the chopper is not my problem, someone else needs to take it out." Know what I mean. Again, sorry if you think I was attacking you, I should have added a "IRT" before the rest of the post.
    No apologies needed, Angel Although I do appreciate the sentiment behind it, and the maturity to actually say everything you just said! It was frustrating as hell, and I actually rage quit over it - an exceedingly rare event for me! Apologies to my squad mates for that round if any are around. I guess I just feel like I've done some complaining about the vehicles on the boards here the last couple of days, and I want to make sure it is understood that these are not comments made because I cannot or will not make the effort to overcome the challenge vehicles present to infantry in this game. It worries me when with certain combinations of perks (like the heli pilot AND gunner both having flairs) there doesn't really seem to be anything infantry can do. Doesn't mean I'll stop trying though.
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  23. #72
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Crux View Post
    we need to recognize we have fundamentally altered the infantry-vehicle balance in the process.
    I disagree with "fundamentally". The changes are minor, and that's probably an exaggeration.

    I'm all for having a discussion about the balance, but this is seriously the first I've thought of it, or seen it brought up. Server 2 armor is fine the way it is, imo.

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  25. #73



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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Originally Posted by Skud
    The changes had nothing to do with HC or standard. Only what we felt was the best for TG.
    Originally Posted by BleedingKnee
    Really? Because I remember reading

    As for the reduced health. 80% is halfway to hardcore so it is a temp step down to see what that feels like. There have been calls to check out reduced health on one server and I have a feeling myself it will feel better.
    Originally Posted by FBmantis

    Bleedingknee you are being a touch pedantic here mate. The mention of Hardcore and Normal is clearly only intended to give people a frame of reference. There is a scale for health, 0 to 100%. Normal sits at one end (100%) and Hardcore sits at 60%. As many people have played both they understand how these play, hence the use of them as points of reference, "80% is halfway to hardcore".

    Oh and with regards to the comments about PR/Arma bias lol, uninformed and incorrect. Plus as a 'PR Player' I like normal and the 80% setting and don't like hardcore, for what it's worth.

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  27. #74
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Wicks View Post
    Bleedingknee you are being a touch pedantic here mate. The mention of Hardcore and Normal is clearly only intended to give people a frame of reference. There is a scale for health, 0 to 100%. Normal sits at one end (100%) and Hardcore sits at 60%. As many people have played both they understand how these play, hence the use of them as points of reference, "80% is halfway to hardcore".
    I think you didn't quite go back far enough, Wicks.

    This began with Kappa asking about the 80% setting. I proceeded to explain it to him, using Hardcore and Normal as a frame of reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crux
    The goal is to find a happy middle ground between hardcore and vanilla with regards to infantry-infantry interaction. We don't want people to be bullet sponges, but also don't want to die from a passing mosquito's sneezing on us.
    But, apparently this was wrong. Because Skud fervently pointed out that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Skud
    The changes had nothing to do with HC or standard. Only what we felt was the best for TG.

    What other servers do... up to them. This is TG. Our product is unique.
    So in fact, Bleeding was simply defending my using Hardcore and Normal as a frame of reference - which Skud doesn't feel I should do because it somehow doing so impedes on the uniqueness of TG and it's product

    What other servers have to do with this in the above-mentioned quote you'll have to ask Skud because frankly I have no idea.
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  29. #75
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    Re: BF3 Server Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhohar View Post
    I disagree with "fundamentally". The changes are minor, and that's probably an exaggeration.

    I'm all for having a discussion about the balance, but this is seriously the first I've thought of it, or seen it brought up. Server 2 armor is fine the way it is, imo.
    I thought you were an engineer for living Zhohar? 20% isn't exactly a minor change. 5% I'd give you. 20% is a major change. If someone came to you and said "Zhohar, your salary has been cut by 20%", I don't think you would go to your friends and say "Man, I got a minor pay cut at work today".

    I think it's a little early to draw absolute conclusions, and I'll grant that my reaction came in part due to a freakish round from a helicopter on a specific map. I will however suggest that when a single 2-man team can be responsible for 15% of a team's ticket loss in a single round on a 64 player server then there's a possibility that something might be slightly askew. Now it might be that in reality it is other factors such as stacking flares, absurdly effective IR for the gunner, or something else I'm not even thinking of that is the true problem here. But increasing the ease with which infantry dies while doing nothing whatsoever to vehicles only exacerbates the problem.

    One question I would ask is: why are we allowing 3rd person view for vehicles? That provides a HUGE advantage to vehicle drivers/pilots. I would think turning that off would be a good starting point as it greatly reduces the ability of a chopper pilot to either see incoming missiles, detect their direction of fire, and just generally locate targets on the ground for the gunner.
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