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  1. #106

    LordKelvin's Avatar

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    Re: PC patch changes.

    Everyone should stay outside in the open or in tight indoor spaces all the time with AEK-981s with the iron sights and no upgrades so I can blindly charge around a corner and lay them out before they know what's happening.


    Seriously though, did people complain about getting Herzog-d to the face in 2142 in the CQC frag-fests? No, because that's what it was for. To allow a Baur or SCAR user to be able to defend themselves against people with Voss-es and Clarks.




    "Cum bellum clamavit, nos respondivi..."


    "I've given everything I can... There are no heroes left in man..."

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  3. #107
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    Re: PC patch changes.

    I think I remember some people not being happy with the way I ran around with the 40mm shotgun in BC2. Admittedly, that thing was overpowered

    In BF3 I would estimate that I am carrying medkits 90% of the time over an under-barrel attachment. With our server settings, I feel selfish NOT carrying medkits lol.
    "Looking for brahs to come fight crime with me" - Unload




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  5. #108
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    Re: PC patch changes.

    If people would actually read the quote Ven was responding to when he said the MASS should not be used as a primary you will all see he was talking about the mass as a insta-switch underbarrel shotgun that preforms highly at ranges farther than cqc.

    In game ranges are not the equivalent to real life ranges when it comes to a fire-fight due to game mechanics, something we here at TG strive to "simulate" within our games. While most people consider long range 50-100m the fact is a large number of engagements happen with both parties being between 125-250m apart. This range becomes the assumed standard by which all other fighting is compared. (Bear with me, I'll get to my point shortly.) It seems to me that this, by virtue warps our understanding of weather an action is acceptable, and when.

    To achieve near simulation, a concept pointed out clearly through the primer, we have to take a step back from how the "game" works and look at real life. In real life, paramilitary groups as well as police units around the world, tend to describe CQC as actions occuring within 0-35m, that's roughly Point Blank and from 3 average car lengths away to give you an idea of the extremes. With that in mind, lets look at the real life uses of something like the M26 MASS. The MASS was designed as a light-weight accessory to the M16/m4 style weapon system. It's detachable magazine and bolt action enable quick magazine changes to alternate munition types, this unfortunately is not available in the game. It has a 7 inch barrel, and fires between 3-5 12 gauge rounds. A seven inch barrel on a shotgun is rather short, and in real life makes the accuracy of anything other than a slug rather wild. The 12 gauge round it utilizes is rather low velocity by comparison to the 7.62 and 5.56 assault rifles that the Mass was intended to attach to. That being said. At a range of 50m, in a firefight-like situation a 12 gauge shotgun will not produce the same effects as a 5.56 or higher AR. This is simple fact, a fact that we as a community must all recognize as the rule and not the exception. Now, with all this information we can infer that getting killed by an M26 MASS at ranges beyond 40m no longer constitutes Close Quarters Combat, in addition if the weapon is that powerful at such ranges, it is clearly an imbalance in the game, and we as a community can not support it's use.

    This should be something every member of this community is concerned with, we should never be content to say "this game is fine." We did not make the game we play, but we do make the environment in which we experience it. If the game is fine, then it should be named Tactical Game 1, not Battlefield 3, or Modern Warfare 3, or ARMA II.

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  7. #109
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    BleedingKnee's Avatar

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    Re: PC patch changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blugill View Post
    Now, with all this information we can infer that getting killed by an M26 MASS at ranges beyond 40m no longer constitutes Close Quarters Combat, in addition if the weapon is that powerful at such ranges, it is clearly an imbalance in the game, and we as a community can not support it's use.
    So, shall we take that same logic to conclude that, as a community, we should not allow indoor usage of assault weapons? After all, an M16 is NOT a CQB weapon.

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  9. #110
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    Blugill's Avatar

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    Re: PC patch changes.

    So you clearly didn't read the links I provided above, but I'll help you along.

    In the CQC article: " In CQC, the emphasis is on small infantry units using light, compact weapons that one man can carry and use easily in tight spaces, such as carbines, submachine guns, shotguns, pistols, and knives."

    And additional information to be considered:

    The translation of assault rifle from Sturmgewehr gradually became the common term for similar firearms sharing the same technical definition as the StG 44. In a strict definition, a firearm must have at least the following characteristics to be considered an assault rifle:
    *It must be an individual weapon with provision to fire from the shoulder (i.e. a buttstock);
    *It must be capable of selective fire;
    *It must have an intermediate-power cartridge: more power than a pistol but less than a standard rifle or battle rifle;
    *Its ammunition must be supplied from a detachable magazine rather than a feed-belt.
    *It should at least have a firing range of 300 meters (984 feet)

    With those two bits of information we can draw the conclusion that the Assault Rifles in Battlefield 3 are all good choices for clearing rooms.

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  11. #111
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    BleedingKnee's Avatar

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    Re: PC patch changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blugill View Post
    With those two bits of information we can draw the conclusion that the Assault Rifles in Battlefield 3 are all good choices for clearing rooms.
    Fair enough. What of support weapons? If someone takes me out with a SAW in a room, should I report them? Or are those CQB weapons too?

    BTW, any real world teams use the G3A3 for clearing rooms?

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  13. #112
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    Re: PC patch changes.

    At first I thought you were confused about what the term assault rifle meant in regards to Close Quarters Combat, but I now realize that you are just trying to troll me. I must have mistaken Tactical Gamer with some other tactically minded socially accepting, good-natured gaming group dedicated to a primer that consists of:

    1) Create an environment conducive for mature gamers to enjoy the games they play without the everyday interference from the less-than-mature gamers.

    2) Create an environment where there was mutual respect for your fellow gamers and where all members would be working together to advance the enjoyment of their hobby.

    3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine, regardless of the level of advantage, if any, it gives over the opposing team.
    Last edited by Blugill; 04-05-2012 at 11:02 PM. Reason: offhanded comment removed

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  15. #113

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    Re: PC patch changes.

    And I would suggest at this point a refocus on discussing the patch rather than looking for divisive minor details on how the primer can be applied.
    |TG-12th| fallen

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  17. #114

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    Re: PC patch changes.

    Secondly, this is not the Sandbox. Trolling and pushing buttons is not acceptable, snark & sarcasm are also poor ways to communicate in a mature environment.

    Carry on.
    |TG-12th| fallen

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  19. #115
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    BleedingKnee's Avatar

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    Re: PC patch changes.

    We do not have hard rules as to when it is OK and when it is not OK to use a certain weapon.

    My argument (and mind you it is an argument not a trollerment) is that a lot of weapons get used in BF3 in a way there were not intended to. This includes clearing a room with a SAW and throwing frags at a HMMWV. That does not make their use against the primer. Limiting the usage of weapons based on their real-life intended usage is inappropriate for BF3.

    The patch buffed the MASS making it an effective weapon at range. For TG to come out with a rule saying it is not to be used as a primary is as ridiculous as saying do not use the SAW indoors.

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  21. #116
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    Re: PC patch changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by BleedingKnee View Post
    We do not have hard rules as to when it is OK and when it is not OK to use a certain weapon.

    My argument (and mind you it is an argument not a trollerment) is that a lot of weapons get used in BF3 in a way there were not intended to. This includes clearing a room with a SAW and throwing frags at a HMMWV. That does not make their use against the primer. Limiting the usage of weapons based on their real-life intended usage is inappropriate for BF3.

    The patch buffed the MASS making it an effective weapon at range. For TG to come out with a rule saying it is not to be used as a primary is as ridiculous as saying do not use the SAW indoors.

    SAWs are used in clearing buildings. They are good for covering stairs on the ascent. That's why there are assault slings and soft-bag belt pouches. Some refer to the collapsible stock SAWs as "MOUT SAWs" (they might also have a shorter barrel available too).

    Interesting story: when my brother was the BN logistics officer for a unit about to deploy to Afghanistan, his CDR heard "MOUT SAW" and processed it as "Mountain SAW", and insisted my brother procure a bunch for the BN. Long story short, they were 200-400m too short in range for the theater.


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  23. #117
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    Re: PC patch changes.

    @ Bleeding: So, what you are basically saying is "forget about the primer" ?

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  25. #118

    TheLancerMancer's Avatar

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    Re: PC patch changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilhardt View Post
    @ Bleeding: So, what you are basically saying is "forget about the primer" ?
    He is saying nothing of the sort and I very much recommend you avoid accusing anyone of such in the future. Period.

    What BleedingKnee is saying (if I may be sold bold good sir) is that Battlefield 3 is not designed as a "realism" or simulation-style title, therefore certain measures that would be common or expected on a simulation title are simply not applicable here. That does not mean that the primer has been thrown out; it simply means it is applied differently.


    Though it shouldn't need repeating I'd like to more forcefully word Fallen's above posts. While I did jump on the dog-pile in reaction to Ven's previous post as well; I would like to ask ALL of you to stand down for an hour and chill out. There is absolutely no need for finger pointing of any kind in a discussion thread.

    "Over the din of battle could be heard Lancerís maniacal laughter and it spurned us on to stay the course, not to give up, and enjoy." - Grimmfist

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  27. #119
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    Re: PC patch changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilhardt View Post
    @ Bleeding: So, what you are basically saying is "forget about the primer" ?
    What I think Bleeding is trying to say here and he keeps getting taken out of context for, is that you can NOT take every single part of this game and turn it into a "this is against the spirit on the primer, you can't use this". Every single gun, weapon, extension, is starting to become a primer issue. Just let it go, play maturely and respectfully and abide by our rule set. If you have a doubt about something, post a thread in the CAA forums with your question and the admins will respond.

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  29. #120
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    Re: PC patch changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLancerMancer View Post
    He is saying nothing of the sort and I very much recommend you avoid accusing anyone of such in the future. Period.
    I did not intend to accuse anybody. I was curious, as that was how I understood his post, you know. And that surprised me, so I posed a question to BleedingKnee, so he might clarify that for me. I am sorry if you understood that as like a rhetorical question or such, meant to attack him verbally. This was, as I said, by no means my intention.

    ...But you accused me of accusing him now.^^

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