Assault Sniper?

**l2apt** · 05-28-2011, 03:28 PM

From PWNED #7

"Battlefield's about team-play. We really wanted an item that was going to take one of our classes and put it into a team-play role that it does't traditionally afford..so we said, "we can put a flash-supressor on one of our sniper rifles, the SKS..it lets that sniper get in close with his squad..."

Does this mean we can expect to see more players like xXLegolasAK47SniperXx running around popping the heads of your entire squad? I for one, hope not. A sniper needs to be off somewhere, under cover, eliminating strategic targets. If this doesn't fit into a team-play setting, then maybe it shouldn't be in a team-play based game.

The lonely kid with the Bassoon is sitting in the back of the room for a reason. We can't decide to feel sorry for him and lob the end of his insturment off so that he can sit with the cool kids with the Oboes.

I know this question has been raised before, but maybe now would be a good time to discuss it again: Does the Sniper role fit into a team-play squad environment, and TG specifically?

**TheLancerMancer** · 05-28-2011, 04:09 PM

To make a little side observation, the BF franchise doesn't even attempt to differentiate between the roles of "Sniper" and "Designated Marksman". I think what DICE is striving for with this flash suppressor attachment is for the Sniper to be able to move in closer to the fight and actively help his team secure objectives or provide close-in overwatch while still maintaining some amount of stealth.

And yes, we probably can expect to see 'assault snipers' no matter how the game is made. I don't think that the addition of this attachment is going to make or break anything.

**Skud** · 05-28-2011, 04:26 PM

Recon != Sniper

I also don't see a problem with a skilled player headshotting your entire squad, btw.

The recon role fits well in TG's titles and environments.
The sniper rifle, when used properly, fits well in TG's titles and environments. *Looks down at Ribbon rack*

I cannot speak for 2142, but I can for BC2. The recon wears a ghile suit, which is silly, but it also blends in perfectly with a lot of things. A lot of players overlook camouflage and concealment in BC2. The Recon also can use mortars, which can really help with RUSH on attackers. The Recon also gets C4, which can make him useful against vehicles and personnel. This also allows for the Recon to destroy buildings, which can sometimes help with MCOMs on Rush, or just area denial for the enemy. A house is only useful if it provides cover to its occupants. The recon in BC2 also gets to use long range sniper rifles, assualt rifles, and shotguns. This means he can fill a variety of roles. Of course I'm neglecting recon balls, but even without recon balls the Recon kit can be valuable to the team if used right.

As far as snipers go in BC2, while you often see the bad examples, you rarely see the good examples. For example, on RUSH a sniper can keep enemies off the crate, deny approaches, or target medics. The same goes for Conquest, only in a broader area. 1 or 2 recons can sometimes puppy guard a back flag, while still engaging enemies near the front.

So as far as BC2 goes, you only hear complaints about "snipers" but you rarely hear compliments. On our server they are often a thankless role.

Some other titles...

TF2: The Sniper was generally the least teamwork oriented class until later on, but it still provided valuable service. Counter-sniping, medic killing, heavy killing, and targeting engineers...

BF2: Same concept as BC2. The claymore was abused, sure, but it also did what it was supposed to do: area denial.

CSS: Snipers are masters of area denial in this game. Some rounds could play out very strange compared to usual based simply on where a sniper might be. CS_Office comes to mind, with the long hallway. DE_Dust 2 also comes to mind, where there are long approaches that could be easily locked down by a good sniper.

Project Reality: Targeting officers, recon, targeting medics, ambushes, etc etc.

So based on what I've said above, some people feel like snipers are "over powered." And that's just kinda silly. Why should skilled players be penalized? With proper tactics and teamwork, any sniper can be put down easily, no matter the game. If a player is skilled, and gets the drop on your squad, and your squad either doesnt use tactics, cover, or teamwork to defeat him, that's on you - not on the player.

**Greasy Mullet** · 05-28-2011, 05:11 PM

The sniper is really more of a spec ops role as this class is the most versatile and wears a lot of hats. 'Snipers' do not need to sit far far away. Instead they should be working closely with their squad to support their objectives with a variety of tools be it long, med, or short range.

**Iamthefallen** · 05-28-2011, 09:14 PM

A sniper can have a huge (positive) effect.

When you know that you can't use the TOW, the stationary machine gun, or spend too much time guiding a RPG in, without getting popped in the head it changes the way you play.

A sniper doesn't need to rack up a ton of kills, he just needs to get the right ones.

**l2apt** · 05-28-2011, 09:35 PM

I guess things have changed since 2142; it seemed like in the past, the field was pretty split on whether or not to include a Recon kit in your squad. Maybe TG has cured another BF social sickness?

**Hablos** · 05-29-2011, 05:27 AM

I think the recons were ok 2142 aswell. It all depended how you played the kit. Running with the squad and capping flags while head shotting people was very usefull. It's a shame that there were so few players that could use the sniper rifles effectively this way. I know I wans't that good of a shot.

**Bert Haanstra** · 05-29-2011, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by Hablos

I think the recons were ok 2142 aswell. It all depended how you played the kit. Running with the squad and capping flags while head shotting people was very usefull. It's a shame that there were so few players that could use the sniper rifles effectively this way. I know I wans't that good of a shot.

The best one i know of is Chris Hooper. There are others, but i don't think they are TG.

**Harlequin** · 05-29-2011, 10:25 AM

My problem with the sniper kit is that imo, the majority of players don't use it for the noble reasons Skud mentioned above, but for KDR fluffing. One of my pet peeves with sniper rifles in video games is the much higher damage per round it's given over the the same respective caliber found in assault rifles or machine guns. I know that the motivation for this is somehow supposed to be balance, since engagements in games rarely extend beyond the range of a standard assault rifle so the damage increase is to give the sniper "an edge", but I just don't agree with it. If you want to make a sniper's weapon more accurate fine, that makes sense. Don't make an M40 capable of 90-100% damage with one round while giving an M240 25-30% damage per round. Yes, making it thus would probably limit the amount of people willing to play the sniper kit, but that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

**l2apt** · 05-29-2011, 11:56 AM

Harlequin's post is exactly right; the entire damage mechanic of most FPS is out of whack. I think the idea is that since we cant have everyone running around and realistically getting killed by 1 shot from any weapon, they have to base damage on some sort of average number of rounds that a player should be able to land in 1 second. And since a bolt-action rifle can only fire 1 or 2 rounds in a second, they have to increase the damage.

This is the real issue of my OP that I didn't make very clear; should the Recon kit be able to function identically, and in some ways better than the Assault class? Should I be able to run-and-gun just as effectively as my Assault squad members? Does having this ability add any strategic value to the battlefield, or just give me a higher-damage AR? And I don't think it does. I believe that the Recon class should be doing exactly what it's title says, reconnaissance. It may not mean that you are always sitting far away somewhere, waiting for that one shot, but you shouldn't be performing on the battlefield in the exact same manner as the Assault classes, which is what I understood the DICE representative to be implying.

**BeSiege82** · 05-29-2011, 01:40 PM

Most of the recon users in 2142 used the carbine and explosives, so few used the actual sniper rifle.

**Harlequin** · 05-29-2011, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by BeSiege82

Most of the recon users in 2142 used the carbine and explosives, so few used the actual sniper rifle.

Yes indeed, the Lambert has a sexy ROF.

**Bisclaveret** · 05-30-2011, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Rapt

Harlequin's post is exactly right; the entire damage mechanic of most FPS is out of whack. I think the idea is that since we cant have everyone running around and realistically getting killed by 1 shot from any weapon, they have to base damage on some sort of average number of rounds that a player should be able to land in 1 second. And since a bolt-action rifle can only fire 1 or 2 rounds in a second, they have to increase the damage.

This is the real issue of my OP that I didn't make very clear; should the Recon kit be able to function identically, and in some ways better than the Assault class? Should I be able to run-and-gun just as effectively as my Assault squad members? Does having this ability add any strategic value to the battlefield, or just give me a higher-damage AR? And I don't think it does. I believe that the Recon class should be doing exactly what it's title says, reconnaissance. It may not mean that you are always sitting far away somewhere, waiting for that one shot, but you shouldn't be performing on the battlefield in the exact same manner as the Assault classes, which is what I understood the DICE representative to be implying.

This was something that initially plagued the HL2 mod Empiresmod. The scout initially had a choice between 2 different SMGs (which the engineer also got) and a long-range rifle (not necessarily sniper). He also had a squad-teamplay experience bonus that would let him cloak depending on movement and proximity to edges/the ground. The scout's long range rifle had a lower damage falloff than other weapons because it had a bigger zoom and much longer time to fire. Where this became a problem was within 25 feet or so, they were a 1-hit kill to anyone regardless of squad perks or equipment choice.

What happened? for a month or so before the patch, you had games where 75% of the team was scouts that would sneak around you, then run into your organized squad and pop them off at close range with a 1HK bodyshot and run away to cloak around the corner and 1HK people chasing them, similar to what you see in bad CSS games where half the team takes an AWP so they can kill you by shooting you in the foot (it's a 1HK anywhere on the hitbox, so no skill required). They didn't bother to take the Soldier class with the extra body armor and LMG with 200 rounds/magazine or anything, they'd rather just get the 1HK to buff their ticket gains.

**Wicks** · 05-30-2011, 04:47 PM

Harlequin is spot on, ridiculous damage trees in most 'game fps'. Calibre is calibre. Plus the whole quick scoping nonsense lol, nothing tactical or realistic about that in any sense, a lame gimick. Here's an idea, just remove the damn class. A few people get upset, a whole host of people don't, game benefits overall. It's not like any of the ranges in most FPS these days qualify as sniping. (former PR sniper and marksman).

**Skud** · 05-30-2011, 09:09 PM

High muzzle velocity and heavy barrels are obviously not part of your vocabulary then.

Slippery slope. Recon takes just as much skill as any other class.

I play Recon. I don't particularly care what happens on other servers, people. I only care about what happens on my homefield, TG. If you haven't noticed lately, the level of play on our server is generally fast [quick decision making, quickness and severity of action, agility], competitive [sportsmanlike, friendly, and fun], and very skilled [from players who are skilled in non-combat roles, leadership roles, and the trigger men themselves]. I don't care if other players who play Recon are wannabe 1337-snipers, I play the role correctly and help my team. A lot of other people here at TG do the same thing I do: contribute to the team.

When used properly the "sniper" kit has a lot of potential to help out the team. Don't let the average user set the bar - let the bar be set by those who excel.