SloppyJoe

A couple points to add:

1) There is nothing wrong with fast(er) paced game play. However...

2) It seems that there is a large pool of players that truly don't understand the basic TG primer, especially the parts about playing combat games with some sense of personal risk. IE, would you do such and such in real life risking your only life doing that such and such? Yeah, I know, not all games are "realistic" or to some degree or another arcadish, but that same principle sets TG apart from run n gun twitch rambo no fear lone wolfing servers out there.

3) Combining 1 and 2, think of a SWAT team of 12-14 members storming a warehouse. They can do it FAST. How? Because they are trained, they have concise communications and planned movements as well as understood contingency plans. They are focused to the degree that their life or the life of a buddy is at stake. They are also trained in such a way that the pool of team members are generally at the same level, no one too weak, no one way too godlike, they need to be near the same level otherwise there could be problems that arise in pulling a fast paced team maneuver like this off.

Now, on our servers, you can be the twitchiest tazmanian devil crackshot fast mover, but it's about team, and if your teammates can't keep up with you, as awesome as you are, you are not with the team and they are not with you. If they can't keep up with you, cover you, move with you, as good as you can, in a sense, you are lonewolfing.

On our servers, you're unlikely to find the level of practiced and trained teams like a real life swat team. Maybe IHSs that practice and scrimmage, but not on your general pub night. No way in hell.

And as soon as players start pushing the fast paced game, justifying it by their greatness or the "way the game was designed to be played" argument, it's just a snowballing effect that tears apart any possibility for teamwork to be achieved; usually resulting in a rift between players that really understand that this can only be achieved by "slowing" it down, in order to eventually speed it up and kick the hell out of the other team by growing into a well oiled machine.

But so many players get ahead of the reality of what is going on in the server, they have a good idea of what a good team IS, and want really badly for the team to BE that good, they forget that it takes baby steps to get there.

Then they usually substitute the goal of achieving high KD ratios to supply them with self gratitude they need for their hard working efforts instead of the great feelings that come with good teamwork and the patience and understanding it takes to make that happen.

There are a lot of very talented, team oriented players I have seen on the server. But you can take all of the best and put them on a "team" but they won't be a team or playing as a team until they get back to the basics and make it a team. Until that happens, good players are just a bunch of all-stars running around trying to get television time.

Teams can't start off in 4th gear doing 140 @ 6000 RPM. It's first gear. And if there's any argument for "slowing" down the game, it's not to make it BORING or PREDICTABLE, its to set the FOUNDATION for this really simple and fundamental idea of teamwork roots and progression.

Does that make any sense?

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SloppyJoe

Even after reading my own post I realize that this may be a hard concept to grasp.

So here's some examples.

Say in real life, you can run a hundred yards in 10 seconds. But your 2 teammates can only run the 100 in 20 seconds. Regardless of the class athlete you are, in 10 seconds time on that sprint theres a 50 yard discrepancy. And they are supposed to be covering you and you are supposed to be covering them.

Unfortunately, in teamwork, you have to realize that your excellence at something is great for you, but if you don't realize the bottlenecks and limitations of your teammates, and act accordingly, you cannot function as a team with them.

In game terms, if you can whip your mouse around, see enemy movement or not down to a pixel on the side of your screen, and your teammates can't, and you move but they are still scanning because they are not as quick as you are, same thing as the example above, you cause a seperation in the team.

TG brings in all sorts of players at many different levels of gaming proficiencies. Unfortunately, the burden falls more on the hotshots to slow down their game in order to function with new players or even veterans that just don't have excellent skills in order to promote teamwork play.

Now if that is a bummer for all you guys that love to play fast, I don't know what to tell you. Build rapport with your fellow players, learn how they operate. If you're buddied up with someone and they are constantly asking "hey where did you go?" You know hey maybe they take more time looking around and when they look back to you and you're not there, you are going to fast for that player. Maybe try to teach him some tricks to speed him up. Learn what players can effectively play at your speed and buddy up with them, that's cool. But when you are not with other players that you know operate at your speed, something upstairs should go "click" and realize I need to get with the team, even if they are a bunch of turtles and "downgrade" your play in order to upgrade team play.

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Barnaby

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Hang me naked upside down from a lemon tree and wup my A$$ with a wombat.

Even with the 2nd explanation Sloppy I still need to read it all again ...... and again I think.

You seem to be saying all people are & play differently right?

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Long Bow

I think what sloppy is saying is that the running back shouldn't be leading his blockers, the blockers clear the way for him.

Please don't go on a tangent about the qualities of a good running back and speed

Sloppy nice work on explaining the need to play at your teams speed not your own. Also I agree we are not saying that the game needs no high speed movement or attacks.

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ikonic

Sloppy hit it on the head in his first post and then fell flat in the 2nd post, last paragraph. Good thing we don't play with pubs...oh...

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HAZMAT

Sloppy you got +rep for the first post. Not sure your example is clear on the second post but it will all work out.

With the rule revision and things being spelled out very clearly it should remove several "stressors" within the COD4 community, I hope.

I did like the reference to the old adage "You are only as good as your weakest link" comment that you posted in a round-about fashion. Teamwork is still key within this game and regardless S&D is very close to CS or CSP we can still continue to bring players onto our servers.

What we need to determine is how do we get it populated from the hours of 11am-4pm (M-F); I know we are locked in solid from 6pm-12am but isn't there something we can do to bring the masses to the server even earlier?

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birdie_in_Texas

nice Slops..! very nice! +rep to you sir!

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LpBronco

Well, when I said I needed to add to the discussion, this is exactly what I hoped would happen. An open and compelling discussion about how to make the game better. I've also a better idea now of what is considered "wolfing". AND I have been guiltier of it than I thought. (Even if I still don't believe my last infraction qualifies)

I don't think we need to paint lines in the sand for each map but having the maps marked with "immediate choke points" in the primer might be the smallest first step we could take. New players coming in would see these points and associate them with the definition of wolfing.

I already think in terms of pcs when I think of TG team play and is how I try and operate in CoD. So with that thought in mind, I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to organize a league where we could work within fixed squads (even if it means playing against the 13th).Wouldn't be any harder than organizing a bowling league, might even encourage a small entry fee to separate the sincere from the "would luv ta's"

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Forewarned is Forearmed

venman

nice to see this thread.....lately we have had alot of newcomers....and sadly lately i have seen a good share of younger TG's who definitely play a little to aggressive.....they border on the raged edge of being in rule violation......and yes they get high scores....but uh its not about being top gun on our servers! The guys doing it know who they are, they keep getting told on coms what they are doing and still continue to do it, and I know there younger by the sound of there itty bitty hormone drenched voices. bottom line is we all need to keep each other in check.....not just admins....everyone.

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GOD SORTS THE WICKED FROM THE GOOD.....I ARRANGE THE MEETING.

jex

Having left COD4 several months ago I tend to see the same arguments cropping up again and again and it still hasn't been resolved. The Arma server had some problems last year and they seem to have gone away. Lately the gameplay has been phenominal and that has been directly as a result of SL/FTL'ers. It's a fact that with arma, if you have a SL with FTL support games run smoothly. Take away those two components and the games can run riot.

Unfortunately there is no good way to organise teams in C4 and I wonder if at the round start, do people still treat the bomb as if they'll get leprosy off it? Would it not be possible to have one SL and one 2iC (2nd in Command) at round start? It then becomes a simple task of the rest of the team following either leader and working together as a fireteam. Having SL/FTL'ers completely changed the gameplay for arma and I wonder if C4 can benefit from it as well.

The biggest problem of course is getting people to actually step up and lead.

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Jex

SloppyJoe

What I was trying to do with my second post was give examples of how members of a team have to realize that there are many levels of skillsets in team members and in order to function as a team with some decency, the higher skilled/faster players (i know this will not go over well with some) have to tone their uberness down. Otherwise it creates too much spread and disconnectedness in the team.

ironically, many players even push their abilities harder to make up for the lack of team power, which, actually helps make the team worse and worse.

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I like the idea of chain of command or even split teams. I do that all the time in CSS. If I got a team specially distracting, I will assign a team leader, even if it's only 2 people. I try to assign a 2ic for me if I go down.

It's a bit harder because in CSS you have 60 seconds between rounds, every round, to plan and do this. So far the admin team has not been able to do something like this for COD4. If you find a way to script this or something PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD LET US KNOW!!!!!!!!!!

Offense has the luxury of planning as long as they need to before rolling out, and has the luxury of he who is the bomb carrier calls the shots.

Defense doesn't know if offense is going to take 2 seconds to plan or 2 minutes. This makes planning on defense a rough task. More often than not if you take the time to plan while offense comes rushing in, you will be frustrated, you will feel why even bother to take a leader role, and your team will lose faith in you very quickly.

So far, the best that you see is defense running a mad scramble, calling out quick blurbs of where they are going and trying to get into some defensive position as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately, I really can't see it getting better than this without the pause time. It's sad that trying to really plan and get to know your team, at least for defense, is on the chopping block for this title. It's one of the reasons, other than working a hell of a lot, that I haven't been playing much. Right now I see CoD4 as a great title to get your gun on, but if i want to get my teamwork fix or get to know players, it's arma or css, easily.

If any of you know how to script for COD4 to get a freeze timer between rounds, that would seriously open up a whole new doorway to really playing together.

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Sirusblk

I agree with all your points Kill Daddy, but are we arguing the level of tactical play like Tarpan is suggesting or the absense of tactical play alone?

Yes all your points are valid and true but can't a rush be tactical? Granted it shouldn't be rush after rush, especially if it's not working. But sometimes it can be advantageous to play it, excuse the phrase, hard and fast.

Granted it sucks if you're playing and you're loosing time after time (and you should be changing tactics) as well as playing against a team that isn't playing at the level you're ready for. It's good to put an emphasis on tactics but you can't force people into playing at a competitive level you want.

I'm sorry if I seem negative, I'm only trying to take an objective viewpoint...

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TG_Bubba

It seems that this thread is taking a turn for the worse. Please keep it on topic. The discussion has been great.

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Admin

Graw 2-- Call of Duty

TG_Mateo: "Forget freedom, democracy, the blues, New York Pizza: our lasting contribution to human society is Bourbon."
Sloppy Joe: "Don't play this game like you are on your own, because if you do... it might become a reality."
kin3: "I'll try but I have the grandchildren all day today and if I'm not wiped out I'll play."

Long Bow

The round delay seems to be an elusive thing currently on the vanilla server. It would be a great addition to S&D for sure in so many ways.

I think with the new rules we have a fairly clear indication now that the defence is free to move where ever, IF one of the conditions of the rule are met. Outside of those conditions people need to sit tight and guard there bomb site.

A squad leader role would be nice but with so little time to talk between rounds it would be difficult to fill that role. That would change with the delay of course.

I'm looking forward to actually playing COD4 again, it's been over a week now

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kin3

I don't know how to say this, but at the beginning of a game could a leader/bomb carrier step forward and lead all through the rounds. We would have one leader and wouldn't have to wait until somebody picks up the bomb to see what's what. He would carry the bomb on offense and set defense as much as possible. I hope this makes a little sense.

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The Old Guy
kin3