Moses

We need to start drawing out the lines of defense please.....

Ya it sucks but what ya going to do about it. We have a double standard going on here that needs to be addressed. Can we at least draw a line, maybe down the middle of the map saying, "right here you have a likely chance of running into the enemy. Or if we want to get even more strict, you can't leave this area and bloch it out with a red area. But i think the new 1.6 maps and the TRM maps need to be worked on. Creek i think we have figured out, chinatown, not so much but closer, broadcast needs some work.

Don't get me wrong, i have moved up too far as well, but i don't like seeing someone else moving up said distance and then turn around and someone else being up that far but since an admin isn't around to enforce they get away with it. Ya, everyone knows the rules but no one seems to follow them. Ya, immediate choke pts, ya ya ya. But everyone has their own idea as to what that is --We've seen that already-- but i state again, no one follows them.

I guess i have a question, lets take broadcast for example. We have two bomb sites A and B.
B)
.....The roof is a choke pt -- can cover that
.....The hallway covers both entry ways -- can cover that

A)
.....The stairs up to A far right/left -- not an immediate choke point but a room connecting to said choke point
....Broadcast room as well

so the first question, when we mean choke points, do we also mean the room outside the choke point, like stairs A which in turn means the lobby stairs as well, sort of
So...... No lobby for defenders period would be a good assumption then correct?

Not an excellent example but oh well.

Now for TRM......

These maps are huge, immediate choke points are kind of hard to live by, more like immediate buildings but even that is kind of hard to follow. I was never in the army but then again this is a game. So maybe drawing a line, and explaining to everyone that after this line you are free game to be engaged by soldiers that quite possible could be around the next door or next to you.

Ok, this has gone on long enough and i'm sure too have opened a few can of worms but it needs to get out in the open. Now some of you may tell me.. "what is so hard about immediate choke points that you don't understand?" And i will come back to you with this fun little map... mp_treasure. I have seen multiple people go all the way up to both entrances to this map and that is far away from any choke points, or even chinatown dvd shop, not really a choke point but a great defensive spot. So which is it, great defensive spot or choke point.

I'm sorry, a bit of a rant, just got done messing with this stuff on server. Next time i'll wait a few days before I post something else on this topic. Have a great 4th if you live in the states, and hope no one walks away in a pissy mood either, not the intent. Later

Moses

Long Bow

As your aware this has come up before and been discussed.

There are sticking points that will cause problems with drawing lines on maps. Enforcing it. How strict are we as admins going to have to be with this? What constitutes breaking this rule?

Scenarios that I can forsee as a problem would be a player stepping one foot over that line. We then have the ultra keen players shouting that he/she broke the rule. Yes they broke the rule but enforcing such a small infraction will not be easy and I don't think many admins will warn and kick based on that. So right there we are going to have problems because some players will be breaking the rule and not being punished. This will introduce confusion and a lack of confidence.

We then have the problem of these lines being interpreted. Player one thought the line was on this side of the dumpster. Player 2 says no its on this side of the dumpster. Argument ensues. The resolution of the maps and lines may cause this kind of confusion

A player runs past the line and plants a claymore then returns to the safe zone. Rule broken but again difficult to enforce.

My point is that we need to be carefull not to disect the game play to much. We will get to the point of having so many rules that all the admins will be doing is warning and kicking constantly. Players will spend more time citing rule violations to new players then playing. We need a fundemental shift in the players attitudes here. Perhaps we as admins need to change as well? We are heading down a road of infinite rules and micro management, something I don't want, nor do I want to enforce.

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amu107.9

on TRM if some type of line is setup to draw a Don't go pass this.
I will burn my fracking copy of CoD4.

If people can't think about what defense is and immediate chokepoint is.
Then stick to pong or table tennis. Because the game is going to the dogs with all this nitpicking.

Here's a line to use. The STUPID line.
If you get killed becuase you went too far into the maw of the offense.
You were stupid to go there in the first place.

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"I was about to call a whaaaambulance." -|SOG| Vir2L
"The Defenders can't go into that building. So I don't have to worry about that side." -Unknown

LpBronco

The problem isn't where the lines are or not , its an attitude that says "I don't care" where the lines are. I'll use Downpour as an example since it seems one of the worst. EVERYONE knows that the wall at the front of the silos is not an immediate choke point yet it is still the principle defense point for a third of the players I've seen on this map. It has been expanded by some to include the flat roof at the silos which allows for an unrestricted view into spawn and is being used by TG players almost exclusively.

Situational awareness be damned call cheating what it is-cheating. We agreed to the rule changes and some of us actually believe that the rule changes benefit the game. Now its time to enforce the rules we have, especially rules pertaining to IMMEDIATE choke points and their defense.

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Forewarned is Forearmed

machowner

All these happen now, nightly. Except they are over someone's arbitrary understanding of the rule. What usually happens, when no admin is present, is 1/3 say "oh no, he broke the rules!" another 1/3 say "I don't know/care or nothing" and the another 1/3 say "his position was fine, stop your whining."
Well, "STUPID line" that is creative. Most, if not nearly all, of these complaints arrive from the following, "OMG, OMG, I'm camping back here for 4 minutes trying my best to kill the last 10 guys, completely ignoring that my objective is to actually PLANT the bomb, and this motherf'er breaks the rules and shoots me past the line! OMG!"

Well anyway, all I'm saying is the confusion is there now, stupid line or not. I don't think anyone at TG plays the IMMEDIATE, not the next one out, chokepoint on any of the maps. Downpour is a good example. The silos are nowhere near the immediate chokepoint, yet that is where a good majority run and defend, both players and admins alike, thus the confusion continues.

BTW: if your offended, don't be so, its just my opinion.

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Moses

Sooo... lets talk about downpour then.

I know that the wall at silos is the point or line in which i will make some contact or can make contact with an enemy. I don't have a problem with that, because it has been established as such, "silo wall, bad guys". But with other maps that is not the case. Either something needs to be established quickly or a line needs to be drawn out for the first part of the maps life to point out, this said point is where i can get hit by enemy fire and anything after that is an even more likelyhood that some enemy is waiting for me. I can handle that.

What i can't handle is someone telling me i'm too far up but see that same person going to the same spot and doing the same thing and no one saying a thing. I'm not an admin, nor do i really want the challenge but everyone, including myself need to ease up a bit on the, "He's way to far up" comments on server maybe? Generally i know where i can be hit from on maps and stand clear of these points of interest but somethings surprise me and i die, and yes i'm mad about it. so i yell, "he must be too far up" but maybe that's not the right comment to start out with. So where do we go from here, not sure. LOL totally lost my train of thought, ending now.

good thoughts though, keep them coming

Trooper

I thought the servers where objective based so boundaries and lines did not matter? If you are attacking then you go for the objective you are attacking, if you are to defend then defend the site which you feel you need to be at.

Boundaries and lines get to confusing when trying to explain them to new people every round. And they are hard to police, because you might think its to far but the next group says it isnt. Just my thoughts on this topic.

HAZMAT

Thats just it! (bolded and underlined) for clarity.

If you are say on downpour and defending and find yourself at the wall of the silos defending then which bomb site are you defending??? If the bomb got planted on B while you were at the wall of the silo and had to turn and come back with out extreme conditioning could you get there in under 5 secs or how about 10 secs?

I agreed in another post that Broadcast should be owned by the defense but that doesnt really fit with the current rule set as they are written. So either the map goes out of rotation or we get something put out to the community on how to play by our rules or start handing out some lengthy kicks.

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machowner

I agree Hazmat, but the problem is that so many people play on the server and almost all of them interpret the line in a different way. Some people say "why would you huddle around the bombsite? that just seems like a fest waiting to happen, we should spread out some, so we are not in a very predictable spot, I'll defend further up." Some people just don't agree that the last chokepoint, should be the immediate chokepoint. Such as downpour, the chokepoint to the bombsite b should be the opening right in front of the bombsite and between b, the mounted mg, and A site. Or should it be considered from the back of the silos (b site side), the back of the tractor garage, and A house. Should you go into the tractor garage, there really isn't anything in there that needs to be protected.

I think some of the confusion is that people want to protect the approaches to the bombsite's chokepoints.

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Dead_Meat

i just dont want to deal with all the arguing between members while i'm trying to play
maybe we need to address the arguing and bickering instead of the defensive roles.

machowner

Sounds good to me, you got a problem, report to the admins, leave the arguing out of the server.

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Moses

Well this is going to be interesting but I'll throw it out just for the heck of it....

Since this is a team game, and being that a team must rely on each other to succeed.....would it be completely out of place to say I don't need to be right next to the bomb site to defend it if one of my teammates is there. And can i go a little further in saying, if i can see the chokepoint, say from the attackers point of view on defense am i still not defending the bomb-site cause i can't see the bomb-site? Or is that moving to far forward?



PS and i know this isn't going to go over very well, i'm playing devils advocate here, but regardless if i'm 5 or 10 secs away from B, if they plant at A.... I'm F'ed in the A anyways so I'm not seeing that as an advantage. I understand what you are saying with the time differencial, but i thought i would point it out regardless.... Good rule of thumb though, on defense.

Extinct

EXACTLY. I do not see why people can not understand this. If understanding is not the problem, STOP trying to get kills. Complete your objective and win the game. Patience is your friend.

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