Re: Creek is such a great map.....

**gijoe** · 10-02-2008, 10:06 AM

Bye Bye Creek!

Thats what i would like to be able to say to it!

**Sable** · 10-02-2008, 10:22 AM

Vote: drop creek from rotation

Creek has some grave problems in its design. The map wasnt made with the same scrutiny as the old carentan map was made (chinatown.) The lack of variety in this map makes it very disheartening. I hope future maps arent made in this manner and whoever the deigner for this one was should be let go for someone that has some creativity. When players can see through a map after a few rounds it typically isnt a good map. I dont worry about the difficulty in getting a succesful plant. I do worry about the lack of angles. Is it possible to add the new dawnville? There is a cod 4 version of it out now and its based on the original cod map. Thats when the mapmakers were at their all time best and actually progressed with historical accuracy in maps. Creek is a bad map. very bad map indeed.

take care,
sable

**Bubba** · 10-02-2008, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Delta

It's challenging, yes. Do you all not like it just because it's, "too hard"? If so, that's a very lackluster response in my opinion. That's what planning is for, to coordinate a thought out attack, instead of the rush-fest that usually goes on. You have 7 minutes to detonate the bomb, don't just run. You don't have to rush out of spawn so you can get the first kill. Work with your team to find the best way to accomplish the objective. Most of the reason that the bomb never gets planted is because hardly anybody works together. They just rush out and pray they get there without getting shot. Or at least that's what I've seen so far.

As far as Wet Work goes? That's just a stupid map for S&D.. Well... Actually, it's a stupid map, period. Vote to remove that one.

Very well said.

**Hawk201** · 10-02-2008, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Delta

It's challenging, yes. Do you all not like it just because it's, "too hard"? If so, that's a very lackluster response in my opinion. That's what planning is for, to coordinate a thought out attack, instead of the rush-fest that usually goes on. You have 7 minutes to detonate the bomb, don't just run. You don't have to rush out of spawn so you can get the first kill. Work with your team to find the best way to accomplish the objective. Most of the reason that the bomb never gets planted is because hardly anybody works together. They just rush out and pray they get there without getting shot. Or at least that's what I've seen so far.

As far as Wet Work goes? That's just a stupid map for S&D.. Well... Actually, it's a stupid map, period. Vote to remove that one.

Its not that I think this map is too hard...thats not it. I just think the defensive team has a huge advantage over the offense. The map is very poorly designed. I have seen some very successful offensive attacks on this map. Some involve smoking the hell out of A and rush. Like Gunner said he has tried to plan out an attack and I have tried it too and they still don't work. I would be willing to try what Gunner suggested not using sniper kits I would be willing to try that. But really on this map most peopl use sniper kits and then it becomes more of a sniper TDM. I don't like grabbing the bomb cause I snipe for support cause I know rushing anywhere, and I mean ANYWHERE you will get killed unless you have smoke. Think about most of the other maps that are on the rotation. On offense there are many more ways to attack. On chinatown I can think of at least 5-6 ways to attack compared to Creek's 3 ways. But I think maybe we should try not use sniper kits I would like to see how that goes.

On another note...Wetwork is a bad map too I vote that one out as well. I mean how many times does a bomb carrier go B when they have to pratically clear out the A site area first.........

**Gunner** · 10-02-2008, 11:44 AM

For Bubba and Delta, you show me a plan on offense that doesnt require smoking the hell out of a or b and then rushing it, i will try it.

Its not that any map is too hard, i mean come on. Any map can be assaulted or defended with success. But that all boils down to teamwork, and on this map, as soon as everyone sees it come up, its break out the sniper kits. Well personally , I dont like sniping and I will not play this map if there arent the regulars on that know how to listen to the bomb carrier and do whats best for the team.

So i guess for now, as i said before, this map just means a break for me.

**Hawk201** · 10-02-2008, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Gunner

For Bubba and Delta, you show me a plan on offense that doesnt require smoking the hell out of a or b and then rushing it, i will try it.

Its not that any map is too hard, i mean come on. Any map can be assaulted or defended with success. But that all boils down to teamwork, and on this map, as soon as everyone sees it come up, its break out the sniper kits. Well personally , I dont like sniping and I will not play this map if there arent the regulars on that know how to listen to the bomb carrier and do whats best for the team.

So i guess for now, as i said before, this map just means a break for me.

Honestly Gunner I have never seen a offensive attack that was successful and didn't involve smoking A or B and rushing it. That is of course with most of the defense still alive.

**HAZMAT** · 10-02-2008, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Moses

We need to remove this map, please.......... You don't even have to replace it, just remove it.............

Thank you for your opinion. All maps get a fair shake and all get play tested and some either stay in rotation or get removed.

Originally Posted by Delta

It's challenging, yes. Do you all not like it just because it's, "too hard"? If so, that's a very lackluster response in my opinion. That's what planning is for, to coordinate a thought out attack, instead of the rush-fest that usually goes on. You have 7 minutes to detonate the bomb, don't just run. You don't have to rush out of spawn so you can get the first kill. Work with your team to find the best way to accomplish the objective. Most of the reason that the bomb never gets planted is because hardly anybody works together. They just rush out and pray they get there without getting shot. Or at least that's what I've seen so far.

Strategically speaking this map favors the Defense on every aspect! I agree with your comments and would like to add that for every rock their is a sheet of paper and for every sheet a paper there is a scissor. Best way to defeat a team full of snipers??? With another team full of counter snipers! But this only works if the terrain favors either the attacking team or is balanced. But the map starts the defense on the high ground and makes all movement for the attackers up hill they really have no hope for sniper counter sniper battle to win. So the alternative is: Smoke, Stuns and Flashbangs followed by a team full of ambush kits that can close the gap on the snipers. I have personally done this and it was the MOST AWESOME rounds I have ever had on Creek. Strategy is slim on this map and when the defense always chooses to snipe there really is only one strategy. I personally enjoy this map as much as I do stubbing my toe but I have to say that it should stay in rotation. If you dont like the map for whatever reason you can always start a map vote.

Originally Posted by Delta

As far as Wet Work goes? That's just a stupid map for S&D.. Well... Actually, it's a stupid map, period. Vote to remove that one.

I dont agree with this comment. The layout is very linear and the bomb positions make for the only plant that makes sense to be at A. Again this goes back to the first comment about terrain and snipers. This map has balanced terrain and favors both teams. It normally boils down to who has the better snipers and ultimately the defense still has the advantage on this due to the bottlenecks at the bulkheads to channel the attackers into the killzones to get to the bomb sites. I enjoy this map as it is a good map to practice new sniper positions and techniques. I think that this map will also stay in the rotation.

Originally Posted by Hawk201

But I think maybe we should try not use sniper kits I would like to see how that goes.

Snipers are needed for every map to scout and to attempt enemy from afar. I am not a big fan of seeing a full team of snipers and will normally change kits once I see this because it does become a sniper TDM and thus we all have to sit and wait for the last surviving sniper to come off of the offensive ridgeline to find the bomb. But then that leads me to think about this post.

So in closing, if you dont like a map consider using a map vote. If you find yourself on creek without a paddle try a new technique. I and a few admins have already timed this and raced (extreme conditioning and ambush kits) from spawn point to B and guess who wins? THE ATTACKING TEAM! Consider that when you have to plant the bomb!

**Mindkill** · 10-02-2008, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Delta

It's challenging, yes. Do you all not like it just because it's, "too hard"? If so, that's a very lackluster response in my opinion. That's what planning is for, to coordinate a thought out attack, instead of the rush-fest that usually goes on. You have 7 minutes to detonate the bomb, don't just run. You don't have to rush out of spawn so you can get the first kill. Work with your team to find the best way to accomplish the objective. Most of the reason that the bomb never gets planted is because hardly anybody works together. They just rush out and pray they get there without getting shot. Or at least that's what I've seen so far.

As far as Wet Work goes? That's just a stupid map for S&D.. Well... Actually, it's a stupid map, period. Vote to remove that one.

I'm sorry, but I find your statement immensely amusing and more than a little frustrating. It's not just challenging, it's virtually impossible. Many of the players that have voiced their dislike of this map have been playing it since it was released (06/2008). The "rush-fest" tactic that you speak of is used because, for the most part, no amount of planning a coordinated attack ever helps. Even having an unintentionally stacked team, with Bronco as the squad leader offered a very narrow window for victory. So narrow a window, in fact, as to be negligible.

Let's look at some different attack strategies on Creek and why they generally do not work:

1) Attack A with well placed smoke, send diversionary fire-team to B and 2-4 snipers* on the ridge or in the back part of the creek bed. Defense stops main attack force in their tracks because they can snipe over the smoke. Stragglers are picked off by defensive forces deployed against the ridge and in the waterfall. Diversionary force decimated by snipers on high ground and perhaps a couple well placed nades in the cramped space of the tunnel. All that remains are the offensive snipers and a completely boring TDM sniper match.

2) Attack B with the main attack force through the tunnel, 2-4 snipers* on the ridge or in the back part of the creek bed and a feint at A with a small fire-team making a lot of noise. Defense stops the main attack force in their tracks with snipers on the high ground and a couple nades in the cramped space of the tunnel. The diversionary force at A decimated by sniper fire and being out-flanked by defenders at the ridge and in the waterfall. All that remains are the offensive snipers and a completely boring TDM sniper match.

3) Attack either A or B over the ridge with the main force and well placed smoke. 2-4 snipers* on the ridge or in the back part of the creek bed and a diversionary force to the other objective. Defense completely annihilates main attacking force as they have them in a 3 way crossfire, have the high ground, and can rain nades into a narrow valley. Diversionary force taken care of quickly by snipers.

4) Delay any attack for a predetermined time to allow offensive snipers time to work. The defense has more cover and higher ground in their favor and generally make short work of the offenses snipers. Rest of attacking force and diversionary force picked off by well hidden defensive snipers.

* 2-4 snipers on the offensive team is a very conservative number as it is usually half of the team or more that plays a sniper kit of some sort.

Yes, I know there are a few more strategies for attacking, but they generally follow the same results. Death to most of the attacking team and then a boring TDM sniper match.

As I said in my previous post, I can just about count all of the successful plants I've seen on one hand. Please be aware that I do not shy away from hard work (or gaming as the case may be) but, because of the commanding view the defense has of the objectives and the very limited avenues of attack for the offense, Creek turns into a snipers TDM paradise. Last I knew, this is TacticalGamer, not TDMGamer or SniperGamer.

/rant

Perhaps the map would be more tactical (and more fun) if all scoped weapons were barred. But, I think trying to enforce that rule would be even harder on the admins than enforcing all of the other rules combined.

**Architect** · 10-02-2008, 01:40 PM

I do not like Creek but i dislike wetwork more,

Creek is a very hard map to play offense on, its good at honing skills.

"If you don't like the map, play through it, you may find yourself thoroughly suprised."
-Some random guy on TG server.

**Hawk201** · 10-02-2008, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Architect

"If you don't like the map, play through it, you may find yourself thoroughly suprised."
-Some random guy on TG server.

You know whats extremely odd I hate Creek but I seem to do very well and I'm always surprised when I finish in the top three of my team

**TGslacker** · 10-02-2008, 04:04 PM

lets look at the facts:

When Creek comes on, people leave
When a few people leave, others follow simply because half the fun is playing with friends
More people dislike the map than like it

Also, less factually but still as important:
Even if doing well, most people do not like to wait 5 minutes after they get sniped for the 2 remaining players to hunt each other down. I can literally get sick of the map after 3 rounds, go eat dinner, check my sites on the internet, and do some homework...and Creek will still be on. Maps shouldn't last 50 minutes, especially when it is one of the least-liked maps.

**birdie_in_Texas** · 10-02-2008, 05:25 PM

Not sure about the 50 minutes, but those rounds last wayyy tooo long....plus, I just do not like the map..

It makes it an easy decision to go to the MOD server!

**badbest321** · 10-02-2008, 06:47 PM

me i dont care for creek its just another map, put it this way you may love certain maps others dont always love the maps you love, so when people who do like creek and you take it away it makes people not want to play more. But this makes other people happy, if you guys would do something different then the normal "lets smoke and rush A" and maybe say evryone rush through the tunnels while the bomb carrier and another guy goes A make it a lil more fun.

for me i love wet work. you are in a very close combats and it limits the snipers to about two. if people would slow down a lil more it may be a bit more fun for some others. as i said above goes here too

~badbest321

EDIT: lol my longest post yet.

**Inconnu** · 10-02-2008, 08:02 PM

(sheepishly looks around)

I like Creek.

(Looks for a rock to hide under)

**badbest321** · 10-02-2008, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Inconnu

(sheepishly looks around)

I like Creek.

(Looks for a rock to hide under)

thats pretty much like i said some people do and some people don't. i think i like i bit it just get frustrating. also think of this isn't fun when you are winning but when you lose you get angry.

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