rule clarification: boundires and downed bomb

**LpBronco** · 10-09-2008 11:29 PM

Delta that is exactly how it is defined in CS:S and one I've also had to adjust to as well.
The downed bomb and keeping the bomb down does not become one of the objectives. The objective remains to control the planting sites.The rules allow you to move and consolidate your forces when locking down one site that contains the downed explosives.

I can't remember how many times I've seen the bomb down on the edge of a choke point and the defending team be decimated in trying to keep the bomb down, only to have it spirited away and planted at the alternate site.

Remember, on Defense, they have to come to you and time is on your side.

**Delta** · 10-10-2008 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by LpBronco

Delta that is exactly how it is defined in CS:S and one I've also had to adjust to as well.
The downed bomb and keeping the bomb down does not become one of the objectives. The objective remains to control the planting sites.The rules allow you to move and consolidate your forces when locking down one site that contains the downed explosives.

I can't remember how many times I've seen the bomb down on the edge of a choke point and the defending team be decimated in trying to keep the bomb down, only to have it spirited away and planted at the alternate site.

Remember, on Defense, they have to come to you and time is on your side.

What? That's completely ridiculous. If the bomb is down in the area of defense (or a floor below it in this case), which the OpFor NEEDS to destroy the targets you're guarding, then the downed bomb should automatically become the primary objective. It's absurd to say otherwise. I'm sorry, but that's just kind of dumb. I'd like to put emphasis on the fact that the OpFor requires the bomb to detonate it at the target. You can't detonate air. I understand that OpFor needs to come to you. Being said, OpFor came, dropped the bomb in the area, and I had a clear line of sight.

Now, in respect to this whole "boundaries" business, if the bomb is down AMAZINGLY outside of the boundaries and out of sight, then obviously, I will continue to guard whatever I'm guarding because I don't know it's down. However, if there is a confirmed bomb down, and I'm in a damn good cover position where I can physically see the downed explosive WHICH THE OPFOR NEEDS, why not cover it from a superior position? I'd like to re-iterate that I was NOT hunting, nor eliminating the enemy aggressively. If possible, I will stay inside these fun little boundaries we have. As far as I'm concerned though, a downed bomb becomes the primary objective for defense. Then again, my concerns don't really matter, as I'm not running the game.

Anyhoo, I'd like to get a little feedback on this one. If the bomb is confirmed down, should it become the primary objective for defense? I say yes. Now I'm not saying if someone shoots the bomb down near spawn that you should all rush it, I'm saying if the bomb is downed in reasonable distance of a bomb site, that it should become the primary objective for the D. Personally, as stated, I find it COMPLETELY ridiculous that if a bomb is confirmed down, that it doesn't become the primary objective.

Now, with that, it should be obvious that if the downed bomb IS retrieved by the OpFor, then returning to defend your bomb sites become your main objective again.

Side note: The bomb was down in front door, and if it was retrieved and swept away to Bravo as Bronco said, I was within 4 seconds running distance of Bravo, therefore also defending the objective if said bomb was retrieved.

Thanks again for your time, and sorry for the miniature thesis.

**Dead_Meat** · 10-10-2008 08:58 AM

I agree with you delta on the defense of the bomb, however that is not how i see the rules bieng interpreted by the admins in game. so i generally ignore any bomb down calls unless it is right on the site (where a planter was killed in the act). i do call the bomb down when i see it but i usually won't cross any defensive lines

**KillDaddy** · 10-10-2008 09:13 AM

Take for example last night on Strike. The bomb was down in the back of the cafe near the fridges at A. I didn't cross the boundary line to protect it, but I could get a good view point on it from well inside the boundary. Everyone else locked down all the other choke points to keep em from coming in another way and I could watch the bomb to see if they picked it up and try to prevent that.

**HAZMAT** · 10-10-2008 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by KillDaddy

Take for example last night on Strike. The bomb was down in the back of the cafe near the fridges at A. I didn't cross the boundary line to protect it, but I could get a good view point on it from well inside the boundary. Everyone else locked down all the other choke points to keep em from coming in another way and I could watch the bomb to see if they picked it up and try to prevent that.

And did they attempt to get the bomb?

Or did they know that since the bomb was called down near the objective they gave up all of hopes and picking it up so they all decided to flank from the B angle and conduct mop up operations while your backs were turned looking at the bomb? Or as some of our regulars like to call "clearing the objective" to get the bomb.

Delta, what you suggest is fine I dont have a problem with it at all. What I do have a problem with is the reaction that all offensive players will then take...
If the bomb goes down in (Crash for example) lower A in the little pantry area then as the leading Attacker I would immediately conserve my force and relocate all the team to the back of the spawn near the alley to wait for the Defenders to take any route necessary to move to the downed bomb. With that I should be able to eliminate at least 3-5 players looking for kills in the spawn. I would then keep at least 1 sniper in the spawn to watch the front door of Alpha as I take the entire team down the alley thru B and into the back of A shooting anything that moves. I would then be making "getting the bomb" secondary and eliminating the enemy the priority. And guess what??

That is against the primary rule:

Originally Posted by TG_Bubba

Play the objective / Lone Wolfing:
Your objective is NOT to get as many kills as you can but to help your team defend or plant the bomb, capture or defend HQ and Domination Checkpoints. Players not doing so are considered to be Lone Wolfing. Lone Wolfing is defined as having total disregard for your team and objective at hand and focused on eliminating enemy forces. [COLOR="Red"]

So what you are asking implies a kind of paradox that can only lead to rules infractions.

Just my angle on your idea. And again a great discussion!

**KillDaddy** · 10-10-2008 11:06 AM

they were already near B when the bomb went down. And I had instructions out to watch all other entrances to A and watch my backside while I kept an eye on the bomb... we locked it down pretty tight and won the round.

**Jack Bauer** · 10-10-2008 11:57 AM

i personally think that the boundaries are what is causing the problem. i know that i am new too to COD4 and that different games are run differently. what i find is that "boundaries" are what is bringing up the majority of the indifference's that people have. i am too confused to the fact that when the bomb is down, that is not in turn the objective.

**birdie_in_Texas** · 10-10-2008 12:11 PM

What is so hard about this people? The objective on Defense is to guard the bombsite..period. It does not matter if the Offense has the bomb or not, as your mission is to not let them get to it, with the bomb or without. If they get close to the bombsite, you make their heads come off. If they drop the bomb close to an objective..GREAT..then you can not only do your job covering the objective, but you can also make it harder for them to get the bomb back.

And Snake Doc..? The boundaries are guidelines to help everyone enjoy the game. The "indifferences" you talk about come into play when one person decides to "push" the boundaries to get a kill, thereby causing friction, and probably getting warned/kicked/banned.

Those who do not want to adhere to the guidelines can go play on any one of several thousand other servers, leaving us to enjoy our style of play here.

**Delta** · 10-10-2008 05:08 PM

Haz, apologies, but you kind of changed the subject a little. I'd like to re-emphasize yet again that I was NOT hunting, nor was I lone-wolfing. I was in constant communication with my team. It should be common sense that defenders are to defend the bombsite, especially on TG. The fact that you even had to draw up actual boundary lines is disappointing. For the new guys that come on the server, simply tell them that if they don't know their limits, to stick to the bombsites. Yes, defend the immediate choke-points. Blah. I don't even remember where I was going with this anymore. Whatever, I quit.

Haz, as a defender, if the bomb is called down, then the defender should take the safest route there. Not flank around the OpFor to get kills, as this would be kill-hunting, yes? Key word there being "should". If you say you're "flanking around to the downed bomb", that's usually a load of crap. You know and everyone else knows that you're just doing it to try and rack up kills. If the bomb is down, and you defend it, you'll get your kills, and be completing your objective. If the bomb is planted however, flanking would be a smart move, as the OpFor will probably expect you to come from the direction that you were spawned in. Anyhoo, I honestly do not see any type of paradox here.

**TGslacker** · 10-10-2008 05:20 PM

I propose a brand new rule set:

The ONLY objective of the defense is to protect the area within 30 feet of the bombsite(s). The defense may not go farther than the IMMEDIATE area that encloses the site. Any offenders will be kicked/banned immediately.

**|82ndID|Roc** · 10-10-2008 08:21 PM

Hey guys,

My 2 cents as a new man on the server....

The rules are the rules. They define the rules of engagement to the betterment of game play. TG provides a unique game experience compared to the run and gun mentality everywhere else. TGslacker's idea is in my mind a bit to ambiguous.

We all know there are few black and white limits in life. Everything is shades of gray. What if there is a small buffer zone attached to the lines?

However, The rules as they stand are much better than rules no rules at all.

**irishsmoka** · 10-10-2008 11:52 PM

well my 2 cents is you should have gone to, or near A building and covered the bomb from within the lines (if you absolutely want to cover the bomb) I can understand i play CS:S server and when bomb is down its almost a pre-requisite to rush and hold bomb, but most often its better to go to the clostest site and wait for some-1 to pick up bomb and ambush him/them at the site. As Haz said its a very good question and discution delta for all, leading to many questions and explaining a lot of things. Keep playing with us delta you will understand the way of thinking on COD4 TG server 'coz god knows it differs from game to game in the TG community but its for the simple reason that games ALSO differ a lot.

**Hawk201** · 10-11-2008 01:11 PM

Guys its not that hard. The rules are rules. If the bomb goes you can cross the boundary to defend the bomb not to go hunting for kills. But I also suggest mabye you reword the rules. Instead of saying ANY flanking move to the bomb, why doesn't say the quickest route to the downed bomb. Also I think if you are at an objective lets just say B on District, and the bomb is called down in the exit from the market at B I think someone at spawn or at A can move into the market to defend. Because when you say ANY flanking move than doesn't that mean you can move thru the enemies spawn to the market. I would think that the defenders would want to quickly get to the bomb to defend. Also if you are at B and you call the bomb down I think that you shouldn't be allowed to move since you can see the bomb. But as for people at A I think moving into the market from that A entrance should be fine. Like for example. On District we were defending and contacts were called at B coming down those stairs from the offensive side. I moved from A to B by way of our spawn. When I got to the market entrance from our spawn the bomb was called down on those stairs. Then another TG member verbally told the team he was moving to the market. I also followed suit by entering it thru the entrace by our spawn where I found two enemies and killed them. My plan of course was to move to that road thing next to the market to defend the bomb. I don't think that is wrong because it was the quickest way to get to the bomb. Now if I moved to A and went thru spawn then I think that would be wrong.

**Delta** · 10-12-2008 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by Delta

It should be common sense that defenders are to defend the bombsite, especially on TG. The fact that you even had to draw up actual boundary lines is disappointing.

Re-iteration seems to be a theme lately.

**LpBronco** · 10-12-2008 10:39 AM

CS:S has boundaries, they are just not drawn for all the world to see. So you may dislike the idea but in practice you've been playing with boundaries for years.

The CS:S concept of no boundaries with communication is still a smoke screen as you still can't flank thru the offensive spawn to arrive at the alternate bombsite. Added that a majority of CS:S maps are larger than stock CoD4 maps and the "lines" aren't so obvious.

And spare me your "this is ridiculous" comeback. The community NEEDED a quick way to educate the public about play on our servers as we are one of the biggest proselytizing groups out there (our way is "the" way). I rarely play on any server that doesn't measure up to our ideals.

That being said, the original intent of the lines were to identify the "immediate chokepoints" and the lines were a compromise that allowed for some movement and territory beyond those points when map size didn't accommodate a full server. I think we've done a good job bringing an arcade run and gun under the TG banner and given the rarity of this accomplishment across the 20,000 servers out there, three cheers for Bubba and crew.

Besides if you participated in the first password night, you got to play with TG players playing the TG way. There wasn't a warning. kick, or ban issued all night nor where there incriminations of cheating, etc. It was an admin holiday, there wasn't anything we had to do but play and you would have been able to see how well the rules work.

Again, the rule of law is there for our protection and one of those rules is the sites not the bomb is our objective. Its the law,don't like it, work for change,can't change it,live with it.

(I, also, tried to influence a change in objective to include protecting the downed bomb, like Counter-Strike, but learned quickly the quagmire that allowing a change in objective produces and the rule bending and breaking that goes with it)

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