A message for everyone...........

**|SOG| Vir2L** · 02-06-2009, 04:20 AM

Before you read this..... I just thought I would say............ No disrespect to the admins that have been representing CoD at TG since it was installed here, I know you can get a grasp of what I'm trying to say in the following:

Take it with a grain of salt.

What happened to the way we use to play CoD here? Are us old school CoD players (from TG) not "in the know anymore?"

Seriously............ what happened?

I've been a TG regular since 2003 (no i was never a supporting member (monetarily), but I was asked several times to be a Call of Duty ADMIN, I declined (monetarily*), I have enough other bills, my own clan, and personal dilemmas in my life that have priority over supporting TG monetarily. That doesn't mean I don't care for what TG is about, or "was about". I AM A MEMBER HERE, and have contributed more than money is worth IMO.

I've been involved in the TG community since 2004 and heavily been apart of the player-base since Ghost Recon started, through the COD series, and it has changed, and I don't believe for the better.

No offense, but in all honesty..... the in-house squads(the majority of the admins are in in-house squads) have made the CoD series, a boring, predictable, crap-shoot with all these rules (especially the defensive boundary rules). "Don't worry offense..... you don't have to worry about that flank, cause the defensive team can't go there"! examples.... examples........... you want 'em... i got 'em.

It seems only the in-house squads know the "correct way" to play here. "You can't plant a claymore there! You have to plant it here!", "You can look at the OPFOR there but you can't shoot them!" ............. all the while we are trying to play and wonder at the same time if we are breaking imaginary rules.

Again..... what happened around here? This doesn't help tactical game-play AT ALL. It makes things predictable and boring for people who have been playing CoD(especially at TG) for years. I understand how you guys want to stop run n gunners and general asshatery, but boundaries..... seriously???? You have chased away more "tactical players" then you know! As far as my squad (one of the many points which we all agree on) the boundary rule has ruined the TG CoD experience for us.

Almost all of my guys were apart of TG at some point in our gaming career/hobby (some even supporting members at one time), and believed that TG "was" the best place to play CoD. Now all these Battlefield players/ in-house squads have changed everything (some of you might take offense to that, but it's true).

Where are all the old school COD players at? Did we not have a the best CoD community around? What happened? Did we want CoD4 or CoD5 to be the same game as CoD2? Hell no! We never said we did. But that doesn't mean some of the same values that we held dear didn't need to transfer over to the newer games in the series.

In COD2 we have the best mod around for tactical play... the mod took care of the nubs and run n gunners........ we had a nice crowd with great players. A diverse crowd.......... it just doesn't feel that way anymore. I know there are many lurkers (people who read these forums but don't post) that know what I'm talking about. Do our opinions count? I guess not since we don't post every hour/everyday, and we aren't in official in-house squads.........

We didn't need all these restrictions "back in the day" for tactical games to happen here. We used to have a blast. We used to laugh. We never called our team members idiots for "not seeing an OPFOR in-time to shoot(yes i have seen several regulars/in-house squad members talking sh*t about players on their own team for no reason (WHEN THEY ARE DEAD... DUH).......... I've witnessed it many many times here.... to many to count actually). I've restrained from posting in the "Contact an Admin Forum" many times for crap like that. I know I should have, but I honestly didn't think it would help because there is a biased administration for CoD series here now.

Some people take each round way too seriously nowadays, just as I've taken this post........... possibly too far.....

Why have all these rules been formed? Were they ever needed before? Or is it to conform to all the smacktards that join the server and ruin the game-play for everyone else that knows/has known how to play here? Is that justified?

Please bring back the good times we used to ALL have here.

BTW - My opinion has nothing to do with the new setting's on the server. I haven't even checked them out (yet they sound really appealing).... but the "new tone" that is TG nowadays, has put a fowl taste in my mouth. Boundaries? really..... I thought the whole map was the defense's? Some maps we can't even utilize half of it cause these in-house squads made "boundary lines"???? BTW - Some maps it seems some members of these "in-house squads" can use, and some maps that have lesser defensive advantage, that other "non in-house squads" can't use. (I'll be more than happy to post screenshots of examples).

Please bring back the days that teams that work together win, and teams that don't work together as well....... lose. All these other rules and boundary lines kill the game-play for teams who communicate and tactically dominate other teams. Boundaries have nothing to do with tactics................ I hope some of you realize that.

The TG community I once new is in the horizon. Will it ever return to the fun times members and non-members used to have? I dunno....... it's up to the players, and the "admins" to decide I guess. This could be argued for years.

Again, take this as a grain of salt...... use it as constructive criticism from players that used to play at TG before the big rush of battlefield players took over the CoD series here.

Hope you all can take some constructive criticism from a long time supporter of the TG community.

I mighta/shoulda posted this in the Contact an Admin forum, but I believe that everyone needs to hear where some of us "old schoolers" are coming from.

With all due respect.............

VirChewAll.... out!

**Barnaby** · 02-06-2009, 05:05 AM

Yeah I agree with your points Vir and I have tried to raise them several times myself.
I began to think I was the only one who thought like this.

At the end of the day this appears how the CoD4 comunity want to run these days so you know what you're going to get when you join in.

I too come from the school of thought that says prepare for an attack from any direction and at any time.

All these boundaries makes it a bit like trying to race trains - - - 1 track going in 1 direction.

And as for the " he threw a nade 0.0035 of a sec too early" it's crazy; well maybe it's not quite that bad . . . . yet.

But as I say above you know this is how the TG CoD4 comunity want to play so you know what you are in for when you join server.

I seldom play now maybe the new mod will add some more interest.
I've only tried it a few time but have been disconnected everytime on/at map changes, I can rejoin so there is some issue there I think, never used to happen.

Mark.

**|SOG| Vir2L** · 02-06-2009, 05:40 AM

Thanks for the reply barnaby. It's good to see another regular care about the gameplay here. I hope the rules are still debatable, and possibly changeable.

I just want to reiterate.

I know at least 15 players that used to play here, and are in awe of what has happened to the gameplay we once knew as the best in CoD land. We had a gentleman's agreement that was priceless for gameplay here. It has deteriorated to rules and regulations that are more of a headache than they are worth.

We want to enjoy playing on the TG servers.

It's just been really hard lately because of some of the "you can't go there" rules are frustrating to say the least, even though you are using tactics and teamwork.

......... if you are communicating with your team, possibly sending out a recon patrol...... how is that against the SOP's of TG? If I know of a contact, I'm not just gonna sit by the "nearest chokepoint" and wait for them. My team is gonna outsmart them by possibly flanking them........... imagine that! God forbid the attacking team has to watch their six every now and then if they make a stupid mistake.

As far as I'm concerned TG has always been about playing as a team.... boundries have NOTHING to do with that. I don't have a problem with certain squads sticking to that rule, but having everyone do it makes the game boring.

I've witnessed a few matches, a certain player gets flanked, than the round ends............. "DON'T do that ever again................blah blah blah"

How bout you watch your flank!

for instance..... dawnville (aka Old Town)........... defense can't go in the church cause" there are alot more angles that defense can cover from......."

All that means to me is the offense can rush graveyard without worrying about getting shot. That's more than half the map.

Yet in Matmata (aka Matroska) defense can go into the middle 2 story building and basically shoot players in spawn, and is able to see every flank possible to the bombsite............. without any repercussions.

How does that make any sense?

Watch your flank, quit whining about getting flanked.

There are some serious flaws in these "invisible boundaries" that only certain players are able to use.

/end rant

/begin debate

**BlindGamer** · 02-06-2009, 05:49 AM

I guess you could call me a new boy here at |TG| and therefore havnt had the pleasure it seems to enjoy this old shool type of play. I think the rules are 'fair but harsh'. Such as the early nade Barnaby talked about, i think that if you know where an enemy is, have had uniform contact, why shouldn't you throw a nade?

The way i see it the Tactical Gamer experience is about teamwork, tactics and realism. In real life, you wouldn't say "theres an enemy, wait its to early and he is too far out to kill him".

This is like a topic i made in the Call of Duty Tactics Discussion forum, about 'Defensive Counterattacks'. If the enemy are on the run why not make a TACTICAL move up the map to counter attack them, and when they run out of sight then retreat to the bombsite.

**Superfast** · 02-06-2009, 06:04 AM

They took the boundries out, the rules now say to play the objective with some restrictions offcourse.

I can sort of understand not allowing defenders through enemy spawn or flanking. The normal player on the server would just end up rushing the spawn i believe. Still flanking into the spawn with say two people after a period is a valid tactic, but it's very advanced and could again lead to spawn rushing so i guess that's why they took it out.

The maps are sort of small on CoD4 so you know where people spawn or maybe coming out of spawn so i belive the rules are in place to prevent a twitch-killing spawn fest if you will. And it gives the attackers time to plan.

But yeah, too many rules and too heavy modding can lead to a "too far from standard" server that can end up as a playground for those only that like the rules/modding.

I like both servers and that we have one "standard" and one not, but that's me. I just hope we don't end up getting empty servers because of all the changes.

**|SOG| Vir2L** · 02-06-2009, 06:32 AM

just to be clear.... I'm not saying allow players to spawn rush or lonewolf. But some leeway for defensive teams to tactically flank should be a valid tactic here.

**Superfast** · 02-06-2009, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by |SOG| Vir2L

just to be clear.... I'm not saying allow players to spawn rush or lonewolf. But some leeway for defensive teams to tactically flank should be a valid tactic here.

I understand. Poor english by me, i'll rephrase. I think the reason why we don't have any "leeway" is because it could be interpreted differently by servers visitors and end up in spawn rushing/camping. For them the rules need to be clear so they can't bend it. If the admins add even more exceptions to the rules, it will get even more confusing for newcomers if you understand where i'm going here.

**Trooper** · 02-06-2009, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Superfast

I understand. Poor english by me, i'll rephrase. I think the reason why we don't have any "leeway" is because it could be interpreted differently by servers visitors and end up in spawn rushing/camping. For them the rules need to be clear so they can't bend it. If the admins add even more exceptions to the rules, it will get even more confusing for newcomers if you understand where i'm going here.

Vir i know exactly where you are coming from. And ive had this disccusion many times with admins and those in charge. COD2 was an amazing time and we had a crew that could play for hours and each time it would be different. The inhouse squad thing, i see it but you cant really do anything about it until they do.

Now to stick up for the admin teams. Your right the player base is so much different then what we had as far as COD2 players or even GR players for that matter. Not to offend anyone or try to offend anyone. Tactical slow play is starting to be replaced by what the majority of players want, BFx style. No im not calling COD4/5 a BFx game, but that sandbox style of play seems to be what everyone wants so thats what Companies are going to produce.

So in return the servers have to be bent into Tactical Gamer standards. We have standards that each game needs to be apart of. Communication, depends on the night, tactics, its where the "guidelines and rules" come in...and Maturity. When you have an influx of players from one side of the gaming style pour into another game style you need to setup rules to keep it all level.

You have those players who just run around capping flags and killing, and thats fine its their style. And you have those other players who take it slow, and try to outsmart their enemy. So you gotta have boundaries and rules to keep both side "happy" and fair. But in trying to keep the game fun you have gray areas in those rules. Sure maybe not so many rules are needed but in the past and from past player bases, those rules actually saved COD4 from being scrapped.

The inhouse squads are really messed up the game. Because you have large groups of players who like to play the game a certain way and they all interpret the rules all one way, and if they are all admins it really screws with those other players who look at the rule a different way, including the rest of the admins.

give it some time and see if this new mod changes things for the better.

**Barnaby** · 02-06-2009, 08:31 AM

Gents I know I have responded here but this has already been done to death several times and it seems the majority on server now want these regs this way.

So I play here when it suits me and I try to play without out breaking the regs as they are now stated.
For a more [differing] tactical approach I play else where.

Sadly I think the maps are too small and the game was clearly made for a GunBox.
It just so happens that the basic game mechanics is very good and very imersive.

So its a constant battle for me of liking the game, hating the small maps and wanting no restictions as to where I can go, I'm not suggesting spawn rush be allowed here.

Flanking and attacking from the rear are valid tactics in my fight manual.

**Bubba** · 02-06-2009, 09:34 AM

I agree to some point. The old school CoD is still around but not with CoD 4.Vir2L the maps are too small for that type of game play. The players today want the thrill of killing, run and gun etc. The CoD 2 server we have is excellent but you are not going to get today's players to play because of the GREAT mod. To them it would be boring and no fun because they can not rush the objective or spawn. They would not like the slowness of the run and the tactical play it induces.

That being said, CoD 4 is a totally different game. The maps make it what it is. We have mods in place now that slow it down as in CoD 2. Server 1 has been revamped and server 2 is realism and going to be revamped. I and a couple of others are trying to bring it back as it once was, a slow, tactical, team-playing fun game. We are getting there.

The old days were great and you and the rest of SOG gave us a great time and great game play. We are working on it, but the old school game play and old school players are getting smaller and smaller.

**Trooper** · 02-06-2009, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by TG_Bubba

I agree to some point. The old school CoD is still around but not with CoD 4.Vir2L the maps are too small for that type of game play. The players today want the thrill of killing, run and gun etc. The CoD 2 server we have is excellent but you are not going to get today's players to play because of the GREAT mod. To them it would be boring and no fun because they can not rush the objective or spawn. They would not like the slowness of the run and the tactical play it induces.

That being said, CoD 4 is a totally different game. The maps make it what it is. We have mods in place now that slow it down as in CoD 2. Server 1 has been revamped and server 2 is realism and going to be revamped. I and a couple of others are trying to bring it back as it once was, a slow, tactical, team-playing fun game. We are getting there.

The old days were great and you and the rest of SOG gave us a great time and great game play. We are working on it, but the old school game play and old school players are getting smaller and smaller.

good to hear bubba. interesting how gaming crowds can change in a matter of 12months.

**birdie_in_Texas** · 02-06-2009, 05:14 PM

You cannot please everyone all of the time. Please think about this the next time. The rules for CoD4 are what they are because without them, the server is a COMPLETE DISASTER. The only way to make "you" happy is to have it passworded to where only "we" can play on it. My suggestion? Rent you a server..then you can make it exactly what you want..I would definately spend time playing on it, as I enjoy playing against SOG guys..

On CoD4, it seems that we get this enormous influx of pubby players that could care less about any rules other than start chucking nades towards the opposing spawn as soon as the round starts. As an example, late last year the admins "took a breather" and let things progress as we knew it would. A lot of the regular player base left to find other places to play because we did just what you are asking..we let it go "hands off" for the most part. Apparently no one remembers this...so again, we get another of these "negative" type of posts..which is fine, you are free to post your opinion...all respect to you Vir2ual, as you are always welcome to play here..you make the game more enjoyable, and we do care what you have to say sir..

I never played CoD2 in its "hey day". I installed it months after I was an Admin for CoD4, and I see why it totally died. It is apples to oranges in comparison. IMHO, the CoD2 server more fairly compares with ArmA in a lot of ways.

You cannot compare BFx games to CoD 4 at all. Teeny Tiny maps (the stock locations), no armor, I mean, the only thing they have in common is that there are weapons involved.

The comment about your perceived view of the IHS's is, to be quite honest, way off base. I have heard these same arguments about fraternities way back when I was in college. The IHS's have done nothing but improve each and every game they are involved with at TG. Again, you are entiltled to your opinio, no matter how "flawed" it is to me.

You have trooper bashing them and he is/was in one..absolutely ridiculous, but again, opinions.

There seems to be this thought that since several of the CoD4 admins are all in the 13th, that this somehow has "ruined" things. That is pretty much the dumbest thing I have read in a while. That is basically calling Bubba a bad name, as this is imparting doubt on his judgement of picking the admin team. Would people still say the same thing if I had stayed in the 12th instead of coming to the 13th? I was in the 13th before I was an admin, yet Bubba still picked me. Hazzy was already in the 13th, so was Mediator, Bronco, Size, and Killdaddy, although I think for KD it might have happened on the same day. We were a HUGE part of the daily player base for CoD4..

Also remember..the servers for CoD4 are only 22 players. The BF2/PR server is what 60?

Anyway, in response to the complaints, Server 1 is now turned into what we HOPE will satisfy the LARGEST majority of the player base. There are going to be some that think it to slow, and move on and you Vir2ual, may decide that it is still "too fast" and also move on, although I for one would hate to see you go.

But back to my opening remark..You Cannot please everyone, all of the time.

**Bubba** · 02-06-2009, 05:39 PM

Birdie, I think you totally miss the point. You had to have been there and played CoD 2 in it's hay day. What Vir2L posted is not a gripe but an observation on where we have gone since CoD 2. Everything he has said is spot on the money compared to how we play CoD 4. What if I set the server up as CoD 2 is? We would loose so many players due to not liking to have to walk and slow the game down which in itself is a shame.

**Size12point5** · 02-06-2009, 05:53 PM

Good post Vir2L. I wonder about this myself. Bubba and Birdie both make good counterpoints as well. The game is made to be Run-n-Gun. The maps are small, hence the close spawn points. There are unrealistic aspects of the game all over the place. This game can only be compared to itself. It can and will never be just like another game from the past or nowadays. It's a fantastic game but tailored to the fast paced gaming young community. I believe the admins have done the best possible job at trying to make it as "tactical" as a game like this can be.

Yes, there is nothing tactical about not being able to shoot at an enemy you clearly have sights on. Nor is there anything tactical about not being able to place a clay in a certain spot. But as Birdie mentioned, it needs to be this way to be successful for a TG game. If it was free roam for the defense it would be absolutely horrid. The offense would be gathered around in a huddle, making a great plan on how to plant the bomb and the defense would just walk right in and nade the whole team. There HAS to be limitations on what you can and can't do.

The tweaking of the settings for server 1 may have helped this out a little but really, how much can it fix. We still need to have rule limits for the defense. Most of the rules are directed towards the defense. The only major offensive rules are "no lonewolfing" and "use a mic".

Maybe the defense should be able to do what they want. But think of this. If you're trying to protect a bombsite from the enemies, would you really go out on a hunting spree to protect it? I'd think that sticking as close to the site as possible would be the best defensive tactic. Why would you leave the bombsite unprotected? It should be secured from every location/aspect possible. A few clays placed around it, with an offense that has bombsquad is not very secure. Stick to the sites on defense and there is no reason to even think about any of the rules. I think that is as simple as it can get.

EDIT:

Ugh. I must have posted this the same time you did Bubba. Hopefully I didn't miss the point either. There seems to be so much questioning of why the server is the way it is. Why the rules are the way they are. It seems logical to me to have rules in place. But like I highlighted above. There would be no questioning the way things are if people would just protect the bombsites and not try to get as many kills as possible.

**birdie_in_Texas** · 02-06-2009, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by TG_Bubba

Birdie, I think you totally miss the point. You had to have been there and played CoD 2 in it's hay day. What Vir2L posted is not a gripe but an observation on where we have gone since CoD 2. Everything he has said is spot on the money compared to how we play CoD 4. What if I set the server up as CoD 2 is? We would loose so many players due to not liking to have to walk and slow the game down which in itself is a shame.

I get his point..I played on our Cod2 server just so I would know what everyone had been discussing. It was dulld down to where everyone quit playing. The game died because the "next generation" wants RNG.

In its "hey day" there was no CoD4 to go and try..there was 2142, and that is where a lot of us come from. Large scale tactical combat is a blast, and now we play a smller scale "tactical" game in CoD4 , but it was never meant for "us" here at TG. While coD4 has a similar name, it is a different game. We are imposing this ruleset on a game that was NEVER intended to be played this way, in order to be played in a TG fashion. It was designed with 12-16 year old kids that want hard fast action and that is who they tailored the engine and gameplay to. They probably only ported it to PC to get extra money to fund further console expansions.

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