RenRag-SOB

The Russian sniper will not reload after each shot round and it seems to be the only one with an inadequate 100 yard reach. The only one that I have found with the problem.

Krag

The game is set up to balance game play as well as realism if we open up the to many guns to every class it makes the game to fast. now there are 3 slots for semi-auto's
they are Recon and 2 at Medic. I did this since they have other jobs to perform besides fighting. and this gives them a slight advantage since they have other jobs.

but here is what i was thinking last night SL gets a bolt or semi-auto, then move the smg guns to tank drive this will put another semi in the game and take the smg out on the tank maps.

I have tried to find a a semi auto for the japanese If you can find me a link to one with a nice picture I will start work on 3d modling it. then we can import it into the game.

When I am working on the mod and stuff I need to keep many things in mind , Game Play,
Realism, How and what people will explote, and the limits of the game engine, this is a very hard thing todo.

As far as the realism goes I didnt even think about that for the guns, the guns where a balance thing, and the Japanse have the best riffle in the game.

Its like I have said in other posts we can argue realism till we are blue in the face, Take the BAR for instance, This gun was made to be a hip fired weapon but you already know that since you seem to be up on history and stuff. But what will happen when we start letting everyone run around with a bar shooting from the hip. It starts to take away from what the goal is Team Work since now everyone is a lonewolf Run 'n' Gun noob.

And I am not picking your gun but I am picking your class. As you have seen on the COD 4 server if you dont limit stuff everyone is going to take overkill with a sniper. And there is going to be many forum posts complaining about that just like in the COD 4 forums.

I was talking to my buddy last night who is the modder of the BRM mod about balance, Even he said that COD 4 wasnt balanced for game play. Cod 2 so far has had the best balance out of all the COD games and that is why it is still in the top 5 on xfires list.

I know that I am never going to be able to please everyone. Because we all have are own opions . But the whole reason for this thread is for everyone to give there input to make the MOD and game play better. and I do read every post about what everyone wants. And I try my best to take those thoughts and place them in the mod. But at the same time everyone needs to also realize that we need to think of both the upside and down side to what is done. Because it will effect the balance of game play.


So with that said what does every one think about giving the SL both Bolts and Semi-Auto's and in turn giving the Tank Driver the SMG's . This will give Redneck another class choice and keep the game in balance by taken the SMG out when tanks are there. In my opion its a win -win.

Krag

Thanks Ren will fix that right away for the update.

I had a thought after I wrote the post above. Why Dont we do another death match gun practice night on the SOB server. This way Redneck can join us and get to practice with other weapons. Since the last time we had one I have seen StryBulet have a one hundred percent im provement on his shooting skills. I have seen him go from only playing machine guns to using the Bolt and killing everyone he see's.

So here is what we do the server gets put on a small death match map. This is so you can keep respawning then everyone uses a Bolt you are not allowed to use anything but your Bolt. So now you dont need to worry about being naded or gassed
or anything else for that matter. We run around killing each other its not about how many kills or anything like that Its about helping each other learn to use our weapons better. This trully helps just ask Mind Kill.

Maybe we should start a new thread with a sign up sheet for this and maybe Drona can make it some kind of Ribbon event for all those TG guy's joining.

And I sure that Ren-Rag wouldnt mind setting up his server for it. Just to let you guy's know Ren supports the TG server by having a Game Tracker of the TG server on there Clan website so I think that it would be a nice jesture to do this on his server,
and yes his server uses the mod with no lag I might add.


Also I did go and research like you said this is what I found " the M1903 Springfield remained in service as a standard issue infantry rifle during World War II"
from this wiki site,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1903_Springfield_rifle

and here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...fantry_weapons

I also check the other countries and all but the germany I found stantard issue was a bolt and I did not find a semi auto for Japan so please send me the info for a japanese semi because I have looked for one in the past but could not find one.

redneck_fgf

I want to play W@W, not you vision of the real ww2 world. So if I have to go to the SOB server to do that I do I pay to belong to TG, And tell me to go to the SPB server is not in line with the TG priner is it?
Far as I can see most of the over moding has been you opion

Yes I will be the very squeaky wheel, and when the mod for COD 4 got to restrictive it became a ghost town......Look at the stats, this is headed down the same path. Like I said I used to love this game before you over moded it to this level, back it up , go a lot slower with the mod, allow the TG'ers have more input, ask if they want it this moded, this mod went so fast I seen little input for it, if it was slower maybe there would of been more input and more players maybe even thought of as a TG mod also.

In a nut shell allow me to pick the guns and roles to play, or publish a list of how we should play in krags world. I will voice my views here and to outhers, if you need a ground swell I will raise one.

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redneck_fgf

Before I go further, I would like to thank my business partner, Jamie, for getting up at 5am to hear my rants and help me do this research at WFU. It cost Log Cabin research, ie. Him and I about 20 cups of coffee to do all of this, but I think I provide a comprehensive over view on the M1 and it’s use in the WW2 conflict. If a full reference list is request from Krag I will provide one. Krag, I will do full research on the use of the M1 by Japan in WW2 there is a lot of it....

If you go to the wikipedia entry, Wikipedia in culture, you will find how off it truly can be. That is why it is not allowed at the university level as a resource; Steven Colbert had the TV watchers edit it to show him as the savior of the elephants. So if you look at credible resource.. Here I will list some if you are having trouble finding them, I found these all at WFU library, I am sure you can find them at yours.

Ludeke ,Alexander(2007):Weapons of WWII, Parragon, Incorporated: ISBN-13: 9781405494892
Schom, Alan. The Eagle and the Rising Sun: The Japanese-American War 1941–1943. New York: W. W. Norton, 2004.
Gilbert, Martin. The Second World War: A Complete History. Revised edition. New York: Henry Holt, 2004.

Here is Wikipedia for you: found under M1 Grand
“The M1 Garand (officially the United States Rifle, Caliber .30, M1) was the first semi-automatic rifle to be generally issued to the infantry of any nation. In 1936, it officially replaced the bolt-action M1903 Springfield as the standard service rifle of the United States Armed Forces and was subsequently replaced by the selective-fire M14 in 1957. However, the M1 continued to be used in large numbers until 1963 and to a lesser degree until 1966.”

So after 1936, the use of the M1903 Springfield was very low, it was no longer the front line gun of ww2. so the m1 is the gun we should be useing

And from miltairy history questions dot com
“The 30-06 was issued in the FIRST WORLD WAR... and still used by snipers in WW2... the weapon of choice in WW2 was the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine. they were both .30 caliber weapons, but the M1 Garand was an assault weapon and the powder charge was about twice that of the M1 Carbine, which was intended for defense of the homeland.”

And as posted earlier the German solders and the Japanese’s took this weapon of the Dead US service personal to use over there own gun, until the end of the war where the Japanese produced their own version of the gun.

So in you historic realism mod the M1 in both flavours can be carried in all classes in all armies. Where the bolt action would not be the pick of a soldier.


Now if you really whant to be historic and really make the game into something it is not intended to be, then read the, Intelligence Bulletin , Printed by the Military Intelligence Service throughout WWII, the Intelligence Bulletin was designed to inform officers and enlisted men of the latest enemy tactics and weapons. In volume 9, issue 3, September 1943, you will find an interesting article called "New Japanese Weapons for Infantry Squad" before moding this anymore maybe you should reference the Intelligence Bulletin for the years 1943-1947 that I feel will provide you better insight into your historic mod.

Now for the kits
Medics
So to be true According to the Geneva Convention, knowingly firing at a medic wearing clear insignia is a war crime. Geneva Convention & Arms: medical personnel were forbidden by the Geneva Convention to carry arms – but they did sometimes carry a Trench Knife M-3 + Scabbard M-8 (to help cut up clothing to reach wounds.
So in the mod the medic should only carry a knife, it is however funny to note that Army Regulations governing "Wear of pistol in field: pistol (or revolver) with holster and clips including 21 rounds of ammunition, will be worn by Officers and Warrant Officers in the field . It will NOT be worn by Chaplains ! It WILL be worn by Officers of the Medical Department ONLY when necessary for their personal protection. So in most cases the medic was unarmed.

tank driver
First, go here just for fun,

http://www.usmbooks.com/tigerfibel.html

If we refer to the Newsgroup: soc.history.war.world-war-ii and the lead expert John Schaefer, Tank crew mostly only carried side arms, the tank was their defense. If the tank was disabled for any reason the side arm was there to help them get behind the advancing troops until the retriever came, i.e. they were meant to go down with their tank. Although the tank may contain a “Tanker Garands"
“The so-called "Tanker" owes its existence to the long-standing dissatisfaction with the range, lethality and foliage penetration ("brush cutting") capabilities of the M1 carbine. A few statistics explain why this is true: the bullet used in the .30-06 M1 (Garand) rifle weighs 150 grains; fired with a velocity of 2,740 feet per second (fps), it develops 2,170 foot-pounds of energy at 100 yards. By comparison, the bullet fired by the M1 carbine weighs 110 grains; at a muzzle velocity of 1900 fps, it produces only 600 foot-pounds of energy at the same distance--not much more than a quarter of the Garand. Thus, the temptation to substitute the greater fire-power of the M1 rifle is understandable, although reducing the barrel to carbine length would sacrifice some of the gain in power (Fact Sheet #5, US Department of Interior).”
So the tank driver carrying a gun is not a historic correct thing to do.

Company Commander
If you look at the book, Company Command By John G. Meyer, you will find out that the SL had the run of equipment issued, but was also reasonable for all of that equipment. So the SL could have whatever was issued to the squad.

Official histories provide carefully documented accounts of the Marshalls operations. They include Philip A. Crowl and Edmund G. Love, Seizure of the Gilberts and Marshalls (1955), a volume in the series United States Army in World War II; S. L. A. Marshall, Island Victory (1945); and Robert D. Heinl, Jr., and John A. Crown, The Marshalls: Increasing the Tempo (1954). Naval actions and support for the Marshalls operation can be found in Samuel Eliot Morison, History of United States Naval Operations in World War II, volume 7, Aleutians, Gilberts, and Marshalls (1951). Marine operations are described in Henry I. Shaw, Jr., Bernard C. Nalty, and Edwin T. Turnbladh, History of the U.S. Marine Corps Operations in World War II, volume 3, Central Pacific Drive. Edward J. Drea's work, MacArthur's ULTRA: Codebreaking and the War Against Japan, 1942-1945 (1992)


In these you will find that:
US Army 1943 41 men
Platoon HQ = 5
- Lieutenant
- Platoon Sergeant
- Staff Sergeant
- 2 Runner
3 X Rifle Squad = 12 each (M1)
- Staff Sergeant
- Sergeant
- Assault Group = 7
o 2 Scouts
o 5 Rifleman
- Automatic Rifle Group
o Gunner
o Assistant Gunner
o Ammunition Carrier

US Marine Corps Series D 1942 42 men
Platoon HQ = 7
Automatic Rifle Squad = 8
- 1 Squad Leader
- 1 Scout
- 2 BAR Gunner
- 2 Reserve Gunner
- 2 Rifleman
3 X Rifle Squad = 9 each (M1)
- Corporal
- 2 Scouts
- Automatic Rifleman 5 Rifleman (including 1 assistant leader)I am now working up the compleate outfits of the outher armies...

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Mindkill

Wow... I don't understand the angst in your post redneck. The development of the mod has been going slow as far as I can see. It is starting to pick up now that quite a few TG members have finally jumped on the bandwagon and there are now suggestions and comments flooding in. One of the suggestions that was made (on your behalf) and is being incorperated into the mod is allowing a weapon choice for several classes.

I have not seen anywhere that this mod is intended to be historically accurate above all other things. All of us TG gamers should know that gameplay and balance come first, then historical accuracy is added to spice it up. I mean, this is a game after all and I don't think we are playing the game (or the mod for that matter) to get a history lesson.

I really do not see this mod becoming a ghost town due to being "overmodded". And I do not think Server 2 has died off because of the OW mod. It was put on hold to start populating the stock server to draw in new players that would be a good fit for server 2. If anything, the SOG Tactical mod has made WaW a playable and enjoyable (at least for the vast majority of players) game. Almost everyone I have talked to is very excited about the upcoming changes and even more excited that Krag is fielding suggestions and trying to make this all of our mod. Not just his.

If you are having problems adjusting to different weapons, I agree with Krag, that playing some DM with bolt's only (or any other weapon for that matter) really does help. Before I played an hour or so of DM with the SOB guys, I completely HATED using a bolt action rifle. Now, I have become pretty proficient with them and enjoy playing a bolt. Practice does help! If that doesn't sound like fun, try this: Hop on the server when its empty, pick the class with the weapon you dont like and practice with it. That way, you can determine the characteristics of the weapon and adjust your play style to compensate.

Oh, and you asked for a list of what each class gets... Its been posted here since the 19th of May. I will be changing that list once the mod update comes out.

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Tactical Gamer Primer--Basic Code of Conduct--Contact an Admin

8 bits

Wow! You seem to have some strong feelings about the whole thing there Red! Great job on the research!

Let me say this:

I have no idea about history. It just isn't my cake so to speak. The only history I'm really concerned with is the last 50 years or so and it's completely limited to technological advances. I have no desire to dive that deep into history of any kind; therefore, as someone greater than I once said, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I'll let someone who knows more than I advise me on such matters.

I'm not sure if Krag's intentions are to make the game historically accurate or not, but, for the most part, I like the modifications he has made to the game. I've been playing games as long as I can remember. I've dabbled in modding/mapping from time to time and have been programming/scripting for almost as long. As a developer, we truly appreciate and encourage the feedback and strive to make everyone happy (however unobtainable that may be) with what we create. I can tell you that sometimes developers do things just to see if it can be done whether it makes complete sense to do so in order to accomplish their objectives or not. It's a time consuming and sometimes utterly frustrating process.

I say all of that to say this:

IMO, your approach is coming off a little harsh. Now, I may have missed something somewhere (if so, I apologize for my oversight) and I can only hope that this is received as it was delivered (with the best intentions in mind).

One thing that I feel strongly that everyone involved needs to remember, is that Krag is freely offering his time to create something that we all can be proud of with no intentions of gaining anything other than the smile on our faces and hopefully a sense of respect for his work. I for one am glad to see someone making a serious effort to salvage the game and I'm even more glad to see that his work has landed him here at TG-the only place online that I'll ever call home.

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TG_Bubba

Great post Red. I like the idea of the classes and what goes with each, however I would like the option to make my own kits from ALL of the available weapons not just the few listed. Example, I love the M1 Garand. I do not want to take a medic class for you are limited so drastically with the amount of ammo. I want the M1 added to the rifleman classes. It is as RED said. I am a CoD 2 player and love our mod we are running. I think this mod started out good and in my opinion we are adding alot more that to me is taking away some good game play. Actually we have lost some players and it is NOT DUE TO NOT BEING ABLE TO RUN AND GUN.

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TG_Mateo: "Forget freedom, democracy, the blues and New York Pizza: Our lasting contribution to human society is Bourbon."

Krag

First off this mod is not about history,and when I speak about the realism its more about the second story window jumpers. my whole intetion is game play.

And I purposelly didnt metion this in my earlier post the only thing like I said I am controling which type of weapon goes with which class This is not for a historic thing
but a balance of game play.

I would like to see all the guns in each class opened up and That is an ADMIN/CONFIG
Issue. SInce they are still using the testing configs set to limit guns by country they can change that at anytime. I have no control over that.


I didnt mention it for the simple fact to show next time dont come screaming at me.
just simple ask is this a config - or a mod issue.It may even be a game engine issue.


I really do like that you are the only one who has come in and said this is what I don't like. See we need everyones opion to make it better. So Thank You very much for your input.

I will read everything later and thank you for posting all the stuff I dont have the time to look every where and do everything else.

P.Drona

Here's my 2 cents on WaW. This server was DEAD before the mod....not after. The mod has resuscitated this server. I was going to kill WaW off entirely before this came along and I'm happy it's breathing new life into the title. I support Krag's efforts and I appreciate that he is open to suggestions and I trust his judgment.

This is not stock WaW and should not be approached as such. I consider the mod to be basically an entirely different game with it's own rules and conventions. It will not please everyone and it is in no way intended to.

When you make suggestions, I expect folks to present them without sarcasm or hostility. If you don't like the mod, you don't have to play it...using the argument that you have to go somewhere else to get your WaW fix, because of the mod, is pretty weak. You had to go somewhere else before the mod because the server wasn't even running half the time and when it was, it was empty. I'm very happy it's seeing traffic again, all due to the mod.

I do not agree that all weps should be available to everyone on either side but I do find the Japanese side to be a little under gunned and as such would suggest a semi auto option for the riflemen kit in the interest of balancing the sides a bit, as opposed to historical accuracy.

A brief word on tanks. They're in the game, they're gonna stay and folks have to deal with that. They can be used regardless of the server population, as can SL arty strikes, and folks need to work together to come up with strats to defeat them.

Krag, thanks again for your time. I really enjoy the gameplay, the teamwork and the camaraderie of the folks that play and enjoy the mod.

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redneck_fgf

“. . . angst in your post redneck”, That is not the tone intended, frustration is. By the way a very good wordage in your post. I asked for the M1 to be put back in and I was told the krag thought the Springfield was historically right, , but then disagreed that is was not a historic mod, did not understand. Yes we have lost players, the first inception of this mod, was probably the best mod I have ever seen, and then it moved forward at a pace that was incredibly fast. One night krag said in team speak, he was going to make weapons’ nation only, bam the next time I came back it was done, then I did not play for a week , bam my weapons was chosen from me.

When I stated “. . . mod for COD 4 got to restrictive it became a ghost town” that was referring to server 1. Server 2 modifications were a textbook example of how it should be done, full community support and involvement. We were called to play, asked for input, re-asked to play and re-asked for input on every change. Like I said a textbook example Drona did a wonderful job of community involvement and support. In hindsight it probably would have behooved the modifications on the W@W server to follow this model. Found a group of tg’ers in TS and asked them over to play a new modification and change or not change from that point, when you go away for a week and come back to a totally different game that is a shock. I am in TS and the servers daily, for hours, that played the first part of the modification for quite a while, in fact you and I were the only players from tg to be there on that kind of basis.

I do think that Krag is one heck of a programmer, the mod in itself impresses the heck out of me, but the high level of modifications is going to far to fast. Roll it back to the earlier point, the pubies complained and left after a short time , this was laughed off, pubies are the future of TG and input like they gave should be taken into consideration, SOB guys last night agreed they did not outfit to play the objective, they did not take the bouncing betties, they outfitted for the tank, and tried to stay alive and away from the tank, that right there is not the tg way.

Krag when he first put your modifications on this server I played it more than GRAW2 and COD4 put combined, minkill you can attest to that. Now I dislike that you pick my gun, and then make me take a gun that I cannot shot.

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Krag

When I stated “. . . mod for COD 4 got to restrictive it became a ghost town” that was referring to server 1. Server 2 modifications were a textbook example of how it should be done, full community support and involvement. We were called to play, asked for input, re-asked to play and re-asked for input on every change. Like I said a textbook example Drona did a wonderful job of community involvement and support. In hindsight it probably would have behooved the modifications on the W@W server to follow this model. Found a group of tg’ers in TS and asked them over to play a new modification and change or not change from that point, when you go away for a week and come back to a totally different game that is a shock. I am in TS and the servers daily, for hours, that played the first part of the modification for quite a while, in fact you and I were the only players from tg to be there on that kind of basis.




Ok I wanted to respond to another thing. I belive red neck that you owe a great deal of people here at TG an apology. Like I said this is not just my mod, but ours.
here is a quick list of people that help get the mod to where it is and this was tested alot.
and I always kept asking for ideas to make it better.

Stragg = I used his gun mod ideas.
Bubba = He wanted tanks and sprint speed toned down
Kin = He helped test and gave his ideas
Mind Kill
Have A Nice Day
Virt2l
Ren-rag He's new here at TG and more then likely will stick around
8bits although kind of just arived still he asked for something and I did it.

There are many many more I just dont have the time to do every thing Like make a good credits list. I have asked many times if anyone would like to help I am more then happy to accept the help.

If you would like to help in some small or big way please let me know.
I could use some one to make a credits and Thank You list to post here and on the sog-mod website.

redneck_fgf

Ok I will by that krag, there ware many testers, but again I read the post quite a bit, and did not see anything on this, we need to maybe cross podst on the cod4 post...maybe there will be more action in the rersponces.

an apology is due to the testers I overlooked....you guys have done a good job...

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TG_Bubba

We are not knocking the efforts of Krag. Krag for one knows how I feel about the mod and what he has done.

Red has not been hostile in his post, he bring forward a few good ideas. People just got to stop reading into things. I think that the post about the mod are and have been constructive.

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TG_Mateo: "Forget freedom, democracy, the blues and New York Pizza: Our lasting contribution to human society is Bourbon."

P.Drona

When I first started playing this mod I couldn't couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with any of the weps especially the bolties. All the weps take some patience to master so practice with them to improve your aim. I have run through every class and now feel pretty comfortable with all of them.

The whole point of restrictive kits is to force the team to work together to complete the mission as opposed to folks all picking uber kits like they do in CoD4. This is more of a class based game now and as long as the kit selection between the sides is balanced, it's fair.

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