Re: The Terrible Twos --- Server Problems

**da_Vinci** · 06-29-2009, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Ebenezer

In retrospect, maybe we shouldn't have made that big loan to Oyz to upgrade units. If that war had dragged on longer, it would have helped.

We thought they would bog down a bit, as some of you were tech equals, but instead they just accumulated more land at a staggering rate.

You bailed oyzar out in his first war?! What were you thinking?

Tech equality was a myth ... when we had Cuirs, they had reached rifles. By the time we got Grens, they had infantry. When we got to cannons, they had artillery. It just got worse as time passed.

dV

**Ebenezer** · 06-30-2009, 04:01 AM

We had little info. CH took 2 or 3 cities, and I knew they had not much but Quechas everywhere, and didn't have astro yet. The idea was to bog you guys down in a protracted war. From what we could see, Oyz and CH were roughly equal in techs and score. If I remember correctly, they'd lost the lib race too. We had just found CHs tundra-ey southern shores a few turns before and knew nothing about how much land he had.

The idea was to hide behind Oyz and Nik while they got in an endless series of wars. Which worked fine, except they won them all.

There was also a surprising lack of warring elsewhere. We were shocked when we met teams who were ahead of us on the scoreboard, yet only had 12 cities between them. We were feeling small with 30, as Nik/Oyz had 50+.

**oyzar** · 06-30-2009, 04:13 AM

At that time we were at about equal tech, you guys did beat us to lib, even if i did steal TaJ and then stay ahead from that point on due to higher tech rate.

@ your cultural victory, I am pretty sure I could have won that before you as well, I had 3 cities lined up for it pretty well, however we figured space would be faster. I did have all the eifel tower/cathedrals/hermitate/broadway/rock&roll already built.

**Hoplosternum** · 06-30-2009, 04:23 PM

Yes congratulations to Oyzar & Niklas

**Hoplosternum** · 06-30-2009, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by oyzar

@ your cultural victory, I am pretty sure I could have won that before you as well, I had 3 cities lined up for it pretty well, however we figured space would be faster. I did have all the eifel tower/cathedrals/hermitate/broadway/rock&roll already built.

This was one of the more aggrevating things. It seemed clear to me that Oyzar & Nik could simply choose their victory once it was clear DV/Rusten/KM were going down. So why, I thought, were we all carrying on?

On the graphs Oyzar & Niklas seemed well ahead in all areas, or very close to it. A Culture victory for anyone else seemed unlikely since if it had started to look possible they would have been likely able to take out one of the cities in a war. O & N would have been following the graphs very closely if they felt threatened. Even if they couldn't pull off their own culture victory (and with Sushi and such massive income it always seemed likely they could) they could have gone military vs you. They had (and could always have) nukes a long time before you could counter it if they had felt the need and in the late game always had a commanding tech lead plus a large army in being after their wars.

Once I new the part of the plan you told me I had even less faith in there being any serious attempt to stop Oyzar & Niklas

But really Oyzar is one of the best, if not the best Pitboss player. And from what I have seen Nik is all but his evil twin

So overtaking them in a tech race or anything else seemed highly unlikely by that stage. If you already had a lead that would have been another thing but they were solidly ahead in all meaningful areas.

For those of us who's start ensured we had no chance of winning the game this was an especially poor game. Usually you can expect to be put out of your misery early

Or get some thrills as a junior ally at some point.

But in this one it was just pointless irrelevence all game - usually ended by a brief bit of one sided butchery at the end. I feel especially sorry for the Greeks / Arabians who spent most of the game (that's months and months of playing folks) huddled on one, totally isolated, cramped island after being completely screwed over by the map generator. Only to be blitzed out of the game late on. Nice

**Hoplosternum** · 06-30-2009, 05:49 PM

Anyway. Enough bitterness

Congratulations to Oyzar & Niklas. Showing us all how it's done. And well played to those who stuck with this one. Especially DV who signed up for a second lost cause

**classical_hero** · 06-30-2009, 09:54 PM

Are we going to take this down now and start up a new game discussion?

@Elkad/Ebenezer, your anaysis of the game sucked, since you did not look at oyzar's GNP, since that was miles ahead of everyone else and that gave them a great advantage and we were on the way to bringing them down to our level and getting that drawn out war you so badly wanted. Weneeded to take 3 more cities for them to be anywhere near close to our level.

@Oyzar/Nilkas. Kudos to you for getting one of your closest rivals to think you were about to be over run, and thus need help.

**Ebenezer** · 07-01-2009, 12:18 AM

CH. At that point we'd met hsoft/whip and oyz/nik. We met you just a couple turns before you attacked ozy, and we had yet to meet anyone else at all, so we had no idea who was ahead. Other people apparently had a tech lead, as they didn't have astro and someone else had got lib.

Possibly Oyz/Nik helped us reach that erroneous conclusion. If so, good play on their part.

Anyway, I had fun. One of my more enjoyable games. Big thanks to everyone, especially those of you who stuck it out in a poor position to the end.

**Bernout** · 07-01-2009, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by classical_hero

Are we going to take this down now and start up a new game discussion?

I'll leave the topics as is until I get back from my trip and then do some clean up.

As for next game discussion, I'll create a thread for that right now.

Bernout

**ChrisFromLux** · 07-01-2009, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by Hoplosternum

I feel especially sorry for the Greeks / Arabians who spent most of the game (that's months and months of playing folks) huddled on one, totally isolated, cramped island after being completely screwed over by the map generator. Only to be blitzed out of the game late on. Nice

I totally agree!

My respects to IanDC, for first watching his partner's cities being captured or razed by us, without being able to help, and then, after gifting him some cities or settlers on his island, playing both hopeless nations until the inevitable end ...

**da_Vinci** · 07-01-2009, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ebenezer

CH. At that point we'd met hsoft/whip and oyz/nik. We met you just a couple turns before you attacked ozy, and we had yet to meet anyone else at all, so we had no idea who was ahead. Other people apparently had a tech lead, as they didn't have astro and someone else had got lib.

Possibly Oyz/Nik helped us reach that erroneous conclusion. If so, good play on their part.

On general principles, you have to throw a monkey wrench at oyzar early on, regardless of his position in score or tech!

(If you have a second one, maybe that one is for Munro ... )

dV

**oyzar** · 07-01-2009, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by da_Vinci

On general principles, you have to throw a monkey wrench at oyzar early on, regardless of his position in score or tech!

(If you have a second one, maybe that one is for Munro ... )

dV

Trying to win is better than throwing monkey wretches at everyone else, which is what munro did. Obviously you CH didn't throw enough of a monkey wretch at us for Munro to win

.

**emperor** · 07-02-2009, 08:54 AM

Interesting to read about. I played a few turns while CH was away, leaving a turn or two before the war with Oyzar/Niklas started. I wonder if things would have turned out differently if I'd kept playing - I know there were a couple of differences in how CH and I wanted to play out the war.

Still, good analysis. A couple of screenshots would be interesting to see if anyone has any around.

**da_Vinci** · 07-03-2009, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by oyzar

Trying to win is better than throwing monkey wretches at everyone else, which is what munro did. Obviously you CH didn't throw enough of a monkey wretch at us for Munro to win

.

Monkey WRETCH? You mean those flying things from the Wizzard of Oz?

dV

**classical_hero** · 07-11-2009, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by emperor

Interesting to read about. I played a few turns while CH was away, leaving a turn or two before the war with Oyzar/Niklas started. I wonder if things would have turned out differently if I'd kept playing - I know there were a couple of differences in how CH and I wanted to play out the war.

Still, good analysis. A couple of screenshots would be interesting to see if anyone has any around.

They were given gold by Elkad and his partner, which meant that they had maces to defend with, which they otherwise would not have had and I would have been able to take out more cities and bring them down a peg. I did not have a great army that I could afford to throw away units, since they had heaps of units but they were just Q's but I would have done more damage without the outside interference. Such is life. I even tried to get them to join us in our war against Oyzar and Niklas, but they refused and as a result, there was only ever going to be one winner. We had the chance to take out the team that won, but unfortunately the team that could have helped in that, decided to help them. I knew that Oyzar was the biggest threat from all the games I have played against him, since he is a such a great player.

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