PCS and no-go lines - Page 2

**Wyzcrak** · 01-21-2005, 04:00 PM

I can't understand the difference, within the context of debate, between abandoning the bombsites to close in around a dropped bomb and abandoning the bombsites to close in on (not hunt for) a nearby lone terrorist. It's not like Berz went more than halfway between the "line" and T spawn. He barely crossed the "line" to do what I see as no different than closing in on a downed bomb.

So this "downed bomb" can shoot at you. What does that matter? If he had lost LOS on the T, he could have (should have) retreated to the bombsite.

Objectives are steps toward goals. The goal is to prevent the terrorists from planting the bomb. If an objective more intelligent than guarding the bombsites and which doesn't expose the bombsites presents itself, I don't think the DEFENSIVE TEAM MUST PLAY DEFENSIVE mantra should be a show stopper.

**Tempus** · 01-21-2005, 04:07 PM

If we all decided that when there was a single remaining T that could be hunted down without regards for "playing defense", I would be in support of it. That way everyone would understand equally what is expected of each other.

Can we do the same if there were 2, or 3? Or if it was "just this one special circumstance"? Now we begin the slippery slope.

Berzerker2 · 01-21-2005, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twisted_Firestarter

In the case where Bezerker went across the bridge on de_aztec to bag the last remaining terrorist it could be argued that he was no longer playing as the defensive team, because ultimately the defensive team's objective on that map has nothing to do with eliminating the terrorists but rather to prevent the terrorists from planting the bomb. As long as the lone terrorist was staying on that side of the bridge the bomb sites were in no danger.

This is a really interesting thought, and I don't mind admitting, one that has never really crossed my mind. I think if I was a terrorist in this situation, and I really wanted to win, *and* I was sure PCS was going to be adhered to, I would mosey on back to T spawn and go get a coffee. That would take 2-3 minutes, and by the time I got back, I would have a pretty good idea that the CTs would be sufficiently bored that their attention would have wandered. That would then make it quite a bit easier to win! Obviously, this is not something I would do, but I'm not above using some exageration to make a point. Our round timer on the CS servers is quite long (7 minutes?), so this is actually a feasible strategy.

The reason why it's a bad idea is because it's totally inconsiderate to the other players on the server. Let's face it folks, we're here to have fun - at least I am. This is not a military simulation. It's not training to be on a SWAT team. If it was, I could see the reasons that prolonged periods of inaction would be good training. But it's a game, and (I think) we're all trying to have fun. I don't like the fact that the offensive team has this extra, and in my opinion, totally overpowered weapon of delay in their arsenal.

I'm not sure if I have a point here, but I'm sure there will be spirited rebuttal anyway. Have at it!

Root · 01-21-2005, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempus

But, but... OMG, LIKE KILLING THE TERRORISTS GUARANTEES THAT THEY CAN'T PLANT THE BOMB!!!1 ARE YOU STOOPID? YOU N00B!

/acting like a typical pubbie

Very well said.

I'm sorry but there was no where near enough profanity and accusations of homosexuality to be a typical pubbie :-)

I'm aware as a newbie, that my voice shouldn't carry as much weight around here as other people, but I think with the number of frag hunters, TK'ers and generally downright unpleasent people that have been on the servers lately, hard boundaries are (at least for now) a necessity. I understand Bezerkers tactical thinking now I've read his posts. I gave him a bit of a hard time for which I apologise.

I think the problem with closing in on the last T, even when you have a definite location, is that there too many people playing on the server that don't respect the way we play, will see actions such as crossing the bridge on aztec as justification for going on a kill fest. You can't explain to a lot of these people, exactly what we are doing. All they see is their kills / deaths ratio. I know a *little* bit about real life tactical stuff against terrorists, and know people who have been in the trade. When I explained what CS was and how most people played they were horrified. I know this isn't the real world, but the way some people play this game, the SAS are lucky the terrorists weren't shopping in oxford street when they blew in the windows of the iranian embassy back in the 80's.

Am I rambling? Sorry. I'm done apart from to say I really don't mind which way this debate comes out, but I for one don't want to cross boundaries at the moment. I'd rather wait until the server gets a reputation as the place not to go if you're just looking for kills.

Root

**Tempus** · 01-21-2005, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berzerker2

I think if I was a terrorist in this situation, and I really wanted to win, *and* I was sure PCS was going to be adhered to, I would mosey on back to T spawn and go get a coffee. That would take 2-3 minutes, and by the time I got back, I would have a pretty good idea that the CTs would be sufficiently bored that their attention would have wandered. That would then make it quite a bit easier to win! Obviously, this is not something I would do, but I'm not above using some exageration to make a point. Our round timer on the CS servers is quite long (7 minutes?), so this is actually a feasible strategy.

The reason why it's a bad idea is because it's totally inconsiderate to the other players on the server. Let's face it folks, we're here to have fun - at least I am. This is not a military simulation. It's not training to be on a SWAT team. If it was, I could see the reasons that prolonged periods of inaction would be good training. But it's a game, and (I think) we're all trying to have fun.

LOL, have you ever seen DeRanger play?

**Scooper** · 01-21-2005, 04:23 PM

True dat!
I told him once that he's a machine. That guy will sneak and hide, get a kill, loop back and sneak the other way, get a kill, etc etc. Interesting to watch.

Gooshy · 01-21-2005, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berzerker2

The reason why it's a bad idea is because it's totally inconsiderate to the other players on the server. Let's face it folks, we're here to have fun - at least I am. This is not a military simulation. It's not training to be on a SWAT team. If it was, I could see the reasons that prolonged periods of inaction would be good training. But it's a game, and (I think) we're all trying to have fun. I don't like the fact that the offensive team has this extra, and in my opinion, totally overpowered weapon of delay in their arsenal.
I'm not sure if I have a point here, but I'm sure there will be spirited rebuttal anyway. Have at it!

Your view is way outside the spirit and intent (imho) of having a tactical server based on PCS rules in the first place. The only thing I can think of that's the opposite of "prolonged periods of inaction" is "frag-monkey". You can do the latter at any one of thousands of CSS servers. If sitting patiently, guarding the bomb, the site, or a choke-point is something you find boring, or if being out-waited by the other team strikes you as unfair, well, I don't know what to say. It sure as hell isn't inconsiderate to play a smart tactical game, and if parking your butt in one spot is the smart way to a _team_ win, that's the way it ought to be played. And this is the point where the "camping!" whine starts most of the time. If somebody feels put out because a player makes a tactical decision to stay put, screw 'em, they're on the wrong server.

**Meat_Drapes** · 01-21-2005, 05:02 PM

I understand why Berzerker came accross the bridge and killed me. I was using the "lines" as my personal safety net to pick the last of the CTs off then retreat back into sanctuary. And with plenty of time remaining none could know where the next shot would be fired from. Is this realistic? No. The problem is that it would be very difficult to justify every event as they occur. Mine was easy. They were dying and Berzerker decided to stop it. Every situation requires tough calls to be made based on the rules of engagement and no 2 situations are going to be the same. This debate could rage forever. The bottom line is that a "DEGREE" of flexibility is always going to be needed but its always going to be contested.

Berzerker2 · 01-21-2005, 07:01 PM

Agreed Drag - you can't have rules with exceptions. This is my objection to stating the "lines" as "rules". I think the smart thing is to treat them as guidelines, and leave it at that.

That said, I've also come around to the way many of you are thinking about building the server up to a level of trust where we don't need to worry about rules - as long as the understanding is there that this is temporary. To me at least, these lines are bad news, but I can live with them because they're easy to explain to pubbies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DraG

Ok going to what you first posted about meat picking you off. Why not move were he had to come to you to kill you it about your defense. He had to come to your bomb site to win no choice stick to the Objective. Why would you need to rush him?? You wouldn't end of story.

Let me explain my thinking to you: there are two bomb sites, and two CTs. If we want to guard them both, we have to split up, and can be picked off one at a time. Worse still, if the bomb does get planted, then the remaining CTs have to get there in a hurry, and the T can hide, and then pick them off defusing. This, at least to me, is a recipe for a team loss. If, on the other hand, the two remaining team members coordinate and rush together, you stand a much better chance of winning. At least that's my thinking.

Finally, to those folks who think playing aggresively is the antithesis of team play: I could not disagree more. I don't think the level of aggresion has anything at all to do with team play. They're unrelated. I have a confession to make: I get off on really working as a team, in any game. That's what I love so much about NS, and why I still play such an outdated game that I'm not really very good at more than my shiny new CSS toy (which I'm pretty good at). We don't play as a team on the CSS server. I wish we did. I'd love to talk about how we can change that. But it's a separate discussion from this one, IMNSHO.

Man, I hope I'm bolding right...I used it all over the place, and if I did it wrong, I'm going to look like an idiot. Well, more of an idiot.

Oh, almost forgot, on the issue of delay: I was exagerating about the idea of waiting 2 minutes without doing anything, but maybe I should take the Wyz approach and see how people feel about it if it really happens in-game. Actually, I'm not going to, because I think enough people here don't like me. But I would appreciate it if somebody tried it. Honestly - sit around and wait for 2-3 minutes if you're the last T alive. I can pretty much guarantee it'll make it easier for you to win. And I don't have any problems with players like Deranger (he's an awesome example of it) taking their time. That's fine - it's just the idea that it can so easily be abused that bothers me.

**Wyzcrak** · 01-21-2005, 08:06 PM

The teamwork that happens every night on the NS server has taken forever to establish. It has roots, if not yet frequency, on the CSS server. It will grow in time. Teamwork too requires trust, and many of us are still meeting each other.

I regularly play very fast if my team (or a squad within it) can and wishes to keep up. I'm just as team- and objectives-oriented as the players moving more slowly, but some players sometimes prefer things -- PCS things -- a bit faster. I look at a 7 minute (hell, a 5 minute) timer like a plunger... it's good to have one handy, but if you require it every round... something's not right.

I regularly sit back and wait seemingly obscene amounts of time when I'm the last offensive player. I once sat motionless in a corner on cs_office for over five minutes in an effort to hear the enemy's movements. The suspense is nice when taken in moderation. If we all did that all the time, PCS or not, the server would eventually empty.

DeRanger · 01-21-2005, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempus

LOL, have you ever seen DeRanger play?

Disclaimer: Not directed at Tempus, Berzerker, or any other member/player in particular but simply a general comment on the thread at large. No warranty given, expressed or implied...

Hehe... Yeah but unlike some that play here and profess to know what PCS is or think that they are playing true to "style", I can feel confident in knowing that I do. If everyone is dead after 30 seconds and everyone has to wait for me then they can be patient or piss off. That is one thing I love about Apophis, asch, eternal, and a very select group of other players who truly know what PCS is and play true to form. I never mind waiting 5 or 6 minutes for them, or any others who want to play this way, to do their thing as long as they are advancing towards accomplishing their objective. DraG is becoming a veritable master at lone offense too I might add, something I appreciate very much. It makes for some good spec'ing... Ever notice the timelimit on rounds? Seven minutes, right? Why do you suppose that is? That is the root of what PCS is and is yet to be understood by many. If people don't have the patience to wait around while a lone offensive player sneaks his (her) way around tactically then they can leave and never come back for all I care. Said it once I'll say it again and not that I have anything against rushmatching, I'm just sick of it being an MO for some at times, round after round. Good analogy about the plunger there Wyzcrak and very fitting considering we generally have a mix of the gameplay at any given time which is great I think.

Good discussion by all but reading through this whole thread has just pissed me off.

**Wyzcrak** · 01-21-2005, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeRanger

reading through this whole thread has just pissed me off

It could just be bad timing, you know. It might not be the thread's fault.

**Tempus** · 01-21-2005, 10:53 PM

Why would the thread piss you off? It seems very level headed and constructive to me.

Berzerker2 · 01-22-2005, 03:10 AM

I wanted to quote Deranger quoting Tempus, but I have no idea how to do that, and I don't feel like figuring it out. Assume it's in this space right here...
<><><><><><><>

I don't think it was meant as a criticism, by Tempus in naming you, or me in presenting the concept. You play very patiently, and that's fine.

I've got to admit, I'm a bit of an action junkie - possibly the exact opposite style from you. However, I'm pretty good at what I do, and it's not totally rare for me to rampage through the remaining 5 members of the defensive team if I'm the last offensive player. You do it through stealth, I do it through speed. I don't find anything wrong with your approach, and I at least hope you respect mine. In fact, it's these kinds of differences in play-styles that I think make the basis for a strong team, if team-work is done well. Let me head out early and find out where the offense is coming from, and as long as I communicate, it gives you an excellent chance to set yourself up in the ideal sniping/ambush spot. The team wins from this kind of combination. At least that's how I justify my existence.

If we decide as a server that the only style of play we want to allow is the slow, cautious, sniping/ambush style, that's okay by me. Since I'm pretty terrible at sniping, and I'm not especially patient and/or willing to wait 5 minutes in a dark corner, I'd probably have to go find another server to play on. I happen to think there's a happy middle ground, and we're on the way to finding it through these discussions. I just wanted to put it out there that I recognize the options, and I wouldn't take offense if the majority decides there's no room at TG:CSS for my style of play.

**Wyzcrak** · 01-22-2005, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berzerker2

If we decide as a server that the only style of play we want to allow is the slow, cautious, sniping/ambush style, that's okay by me. [...] I'd probably have to go find another server to play on.

Let's try it one night and see what people think. Let's all issue our +duck or +speed commands at the beginning of every round and use the full seven minutes every time.

We'll be giggling ourselves off the server before the map changes.

No, that's not the only playstyle. You'll notice the PCS FAQ mentions no requirements with regard to speed, slow or fast. If you're working with your team toward your objective, and you're not concerned about hunting the opposition for the primary sake of killing them, then you're welcome to do that at whatever pace your team can manage.

If you and your team want to take every round at a mile a minute and bring the heat to the defensive team (it's harder to justify for a defensive team -- you might consider staying on offensive teams given your nature), all you have to do is make sure you and your teammates all maintain your team orientation and objective orientation (see PCS FAQ). If you don't, you'll catch hell. If you do, ask those yelling what aspect of the PCS FAQ you're violating ( remembering, of course, that myself and just about any other admin will frickin' send you walking if you give us crap on the server <3 ).