Professional Football and Professional NS

rs_al · 02-02-2005, 01:34 PM

What would (american) football be like if the defensive team couldn't cross the line of scrimage (where the ball starts)?

Dull?
One-sided?
A lot like PCS?

Yes, yes, and yes. I can see the defensive team playbook now. They would just have to chase the receivers around the field, and while it would be pretty comical it certainly wouldn't be very exciting.

Stopping the defensive team from rushing does not eliminate deathmatch from cs. Not in any way whatsoever. Do people not shoot each other? Instead of fighting in places like the market and the entrance to the wine celler on italy, now all the killing is done at the house. Why would a T shooting a CT in the wine cellar be "deathmatch", but the CT's slaughtering all the T's in the hostage house every single round over and over again is "tactical"? I mean, you went from having dozens of tactics and possibilities for either team to "Camp the house" for T and "go to house and shoot the bad guys" for CT. Wow. Now that's what I call killer strategy and teamwork. "Hey guys lets all sit here and die, because if we do _anything_ else we get banned." Imagine, for a moment, what kind of team chatter you might hear on the T side. "There is a CT coming from X. They are at X. They are doing X". Never "We should go to X and cut them off" or "A,B, and C go to X and head to Y from there to take them from behind". That's right, you've taken what little strategy there was in CS and effectively removed it. Sure, it takes a lot more admin commands then "changelevel fy_iceworld", but the result is pretty much the same.

I like the talks about "ultimately the objective is not to kill terrorists but to prevent them from planting the bomb". I see stuff like this and it's LOL city. Aside from the fact that the only way you can _possibly_ stop the terrorists from planting the bomb is to kill them (Convincing them that violence isn't the answer and/or negotiating a generous cash ransom hasn't been implemented in CS:S yet), this is wrong in every possible way. Seriously, that's like kicking any skulk in NS who bites a marine or a resource tower or a phase gate because their ultimate objective is to destory the IPs so marines can't respawn. Therefore, any skulk seen anywhere in a room that does not have an IP and is attacking things is not accomplishing objectives. The same for marines when they aren't shooting hives. If they were playing "PNS" they'd be banned. In fact, if you applied the PCS ruleset to NS you know what'd you be left with? Combat, Natural Selection's Deathmatch mode. And it's no different when you apply them to CS. You remove the strategy and leave only deathmatch.

But whatever. I've been playing CS for a few years and it's never been my favorite game but it was still a huge letdown to see how you ruined it. I was very excited that TG was making a CS:S, I imagined strategy and teamwork like on the NS server but was rather horrified to see the teamplay had been removed and this set of difficult-to-administer rules was added which serves only to oversimplify an otherwise not very complex game and to provide admins with more excuses to chew out and kick players.

><JohnGalt>< · 02-02-2005, 01:44 PM

I don’t understand why people argue about the server rules. There are 1000 times more servers that play the style of cs that you like, and only a few that play with the restricted rules. Freedom of choice is the solution to this problem.

EssenceOfJudas · 02-02-2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ><JohnGalt><

I don’t understand why people argue about the server rules. There are 1000 times more servers that play the style of cs that you like, and only a few that play with the restricted rules. Freedom of choice is the solution to this problem.

correct-a-moondo

**CingularDuality** · 02-02-2005, 01:57 PM

I was going to type exactly what JohnGalt just did...

I also wanted to ask what the purpose of starting this discussion was? You don't seem to have a point, other than the fact that you don't like to play the way we do.

**Vulcan** · 02-02-2005, 02:02 PM

His point was.....

We turn the server into rushing zombies and he will be happy!

EssenceOfJudas · 02-02-2005, 02:09 PM

yuck. rushing zombies : (

**Pokerface** · 02-02-2005, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan

His point was.....

We turn the server into rushing zombies and he will be happy!

No. I'm truly amazed that someone can write an eloquent post and all people read out of it is "He doesn't like the way we play".

His point was that the server is presently populated with "camping zombies". The CT's camp bombsites, the T's camp the hostages, everyone camps chokepoints, etc. His point is that you can do OTHER things and still be tactical.

To continue the football analogy, he's up in arms because the guidelines say that he's only allowed to kick field goals, even though -- when properly used -- runs and passes can be viable tactics as well, and they DON'T diminish the professionalism of the game.

Seriously, can't you imagine that a team of CT's who know a terrorist group is coming to bomb an outdoor expo MIGHT just send a person/team around to flank them? You know, cutting back through the place where the T's started? I can, but I'd probably be kicked for trying it.

rs_al · 02-02-2005, 02:32 PM

My real point is that TG NS is the best NS server I have ever played on. Period. It is full of tactics and teamplay. And somehow this is possible without rewriting NS and constant mothering.

Those thousands of server lack something and that is the TG community. I didn't imply that teamplay was any better on those other servers, but if one server could shine above them it would be TG's. Yet the teamplay feels limited. It feels like we are being babied, and have to play a "dumbed down" version. Why can't we have teamplay and the ability to do as we see fit?

I admit the defensive team rushing into the opposite spawn and killing everyone while they buy weapons isn't any fun. But neither is spawncamping in the hive or CC blocking in NS. But these things can be handled on an event-by-event basis, there's no need to rewrite CS to remove one or two annoying aspects of it when they can just be handled by professional players instead of a lot of silly rules.

EssenceOfJudas · 02-02-2005, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

.

Seriously, can't you imagine that a team of CT's who know a terrorist group is coming to bomb an outdoor expo MIGHT just send a person/team around to flank them? You know, cutting back through the place where the T's started? I can, but I'd probably be kicked for trying it.

from what i gathered on another post long ago...

you would be ok IF.. you relayed to your teammates exactly what you were doing.. and IF you knew the enemy was there... and IF.. the admin liked you

jk about the admin liking part.. but if everyone on your team new about it.. and it was a realistic plan..
i think thats ok...

**CingularDuality** · 02-02-2005, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

Seriously, can't you imagine that a team of CT's who know a terrorist group is coming to bomb an outdoor expo MIGHT just send a person/team around to flank them? You know, cutting back through the place where the T's started? I can, but I'd probably be kicked for trying it.

That's absurd. How would a team of CTs know where the terrorists are starting from? Having set spawn points is a limitation of the game. If the game allowed for larger maps and random spawn points while still focusing on the objectives, that would be great. But it doesn't, so we have rules to artificially simulate the fact that the defensive team should have no idea about the enemy's staging area/spawn.

PCS is simple, really. The defensive team focuses on defending their objective. Period. The offensive team focuses on accomplishing their objective. Period.

His post really was simply about not liking the way we play CS. Anyone that thinks "camping" is a bad thing is exactly the type of person that we don't want on our servers.

rs_al · 02-02-2005, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

That's absurd. How would a team of CTs know where the terrorists are starting from? Having set spawn points is a limitation of the game. If the game allowed for larger maps and random spawn points while still focusing on the objectives, that would be great. But it doesn't, so we have rules to artificially simulate the fact that the defensive team should have no idea about the enemy's staging area/spawn.

LOL! And having spray painted X's on the ground for terrorists to bomb isn't absurd? If the game allowed for larger maps, you wouldn't know what square to sit and camp on, and you'd have to move around as a team to protect the objectives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

PCS is simple, really. The defensive team focuses on defending their objective. Period. The offensive team focuses on accomplishing their objective. Period.

Iceworld is simple. Shoot the bad guys. Oh hey, simplicity != fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

His post really was simply about not liking the way we play CS. Anyone that thinks "camping" is a bad thing is exactly the type of person that we don't want on our servers.

Did I ever say that? No. I just said I thought locking the terrorists inside the house on Italy was a bad thing. I am all for people camping the house, it makes a lot of strategic sense. But to put the entire team inside the house?

EssenceOfJudas · 02-02-2005, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rs_al

Did I ever say that? No. I just said I thought locking the terrorists inside the house on Italy was a bad thing. I am all for people camping the house, it makes a lot of strategic sense. But to put the entire team inside the house?

the only people in the house (IMO) should be scouters(see defenition in my sig) and maybe when we have to fall back a shotgun in the door... just my thoughts.. who knows

**Pokerface** · 02-02-2005, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

That's absurd. How would a team of CTs know where the terrorists are starting from? Having set spawn points is a limitation of the game. If the game allowed for larger maps and random spawn points while still focusing on the objectives, that would be great. But it doesn't, so we have rules to artificially simulate the fact that the defensive team should have no idea about the enemy's staging area/spawn.

1) TGCS doesn't have rules about that, at least not in the printed PCS FAQ. Those "guidelines" make no reference to simulating real-life situations.
2) Trying to simulate real-life situations in a game is patently absurd. Set spawn points is a PART of the game, and limitation or not, "playing the game utilizing teamwork, strategy, and tactics" can and should take that information into account.

Quote:

His post really was simply about not liking the way we play CS. Anyone that thinks "camping" is a bad thing is exactly the type of person that we don't want on our servers.

Again, no. His post was to remind you of this tidbit from the the FAQ:
"This is not to say the defensive team must always camp right on the objective spots. To do that would be perdictable and easily defeatable. But there are enough places on all the maps we play on that you can shake things up and outsmart the enemy. It is perfectly reasonable to move forward from the objective at the beginnging of the round to secure a chokepoint or some other area where they can get a strategic advantage."

**Tempus** · 02-02-2005, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

That's absurd. How would a team of CTs know where the terrorists are starting from? Having set spawn points is a limitation of the game. If the game allowed for larger maps and random spawn points while still focusing on the objectives, that would be great. But it doesn't, so we have rules to artificially simulate the fact that the defensive team should have no idea about the enemy's staging area/spawn.

PCS is simple, really. The defensive team focuses on defending their objective. Period. The offensive team focuses on accomplishing their objective. Period.

His post really was simply about not liking the way we play CS. Anyone that thinks "camping" is a bad thing is exactly the type of person that we don't want on our servers.

Cingular FTW!

**CingularDuality** · 02-02-2005, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rs_al

LOL! And having spray painted X's on the ground for terrorists to bomb isn't absurd? If the game allowed for larger maps, you wouldn't know what square to sit and camp on, and you'd have to move around as a team to protect the objectives.

Spray painted X's are simply another limitation of the game. Have you played any other game at TacticalGamer? You'll find that our other games have different limitations and less rules enforced to combat non-teamplaying, non-objectives based deathmatching...

Quote:

Iceworld is simple. Shoot the bad guys. Oh hey, simplicity != fun.

If your idea of fun is running around randomly shooting everything that moves, then have at it. I know for a fact that it is mind-numbingly boring for me.

Quote:

Did I ever say that? No. I just said I thought locking the terrorists inside the house on Italy was a bad thing. I am all for people camping the house, it makes a lot of strategic sense. But to put the entire team inside the house?

Umm, when have you ever seen all of the terrorists inside the house on Italy? Your exaggerations are costing your credibility here.

Bottom line is that this discussion is a waste of time. PCS is here. It's not going to change. If you don't like it, you don't have to play it. TacticalGamer will not host a deathmatch CS server, you'll have to look elsewhere for that.

02-02-2005, 01:34 PM	#1 (permalink)
rs_al Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 499	Professional Football and Professional NS What would (american) football be like if the defensive team couldn't cross the line of scrimage (where the ball starts)? Dull? One-sided? A lot like PCS? Yes, yes, and yes. I can see the defensive team playbook now. They would just have to chase the receivers around the field, and while it would be pretty comical it certainly wouldn't be very exciting. Stopping the defensive team from rushing does not eliminate deathmatch from cs. Not in any way whatsoever. Do people not shoot each other? Instead of fighting in places like the market and the entrance to the wine celler on italy, now all the killing is done at the house. Why would a T shooting a CT in the wine cellar be "deathmatch", but the CT's slaughtering all the T's in the hostage house every single round over and over again is "tactical"? I mean, you went from having dozens of tactics and possibilities for either team to "Camp the house" for T and "go to house and shoot the bad guys" for CT. Wow. Now that's what I call killer strategy and teamwork. "Hey guys lets all sit here and die, because if we do _anything_ else we get banned." Imagine, for a moment, what kind of team chatter you might hear on the T side. "There is a CT coming from X. They are at X. They are doing X". Never "We should go to X and cut them off" or "A,B, and C go to X and head to Y from there to take them from behind". That's right, you've taken what little strategy there was in CS and effectively removed it. Sure, it takes a lot more admin commands then "changelevel fy_iceworld", but the result is pretty much the same. I like the talks about "ultimately the objective is not to kill terrorists but to prevent them from planting the bomb". I see stuff like this and it's LOL city. Aside from the fact that the only way you can _possibly_ stop the terrorists from planting the bomb is to kill them (Convincing them that violence isn't the answer and/or negotiating a generous cash ransom hasn't been implemented in CS:S yet), this is wrong in every possible way. Seriously, that's like kicking any skulk in NS who bites a marine or a resource tower or a phase gate because their ultimate objective is to destory the IPs so marines can't respawn. Therefore, any skulk seen anywhere in a room that does not have an IP and is attacking things is not accomplishing objectives. The same for marines when they aren't shooting hives. If they were playing "PNS" they'd be banned. In fact, if you applied the PCS ruleset to NS you know what'd you be left with? Combat, Natural Selection's Deathmatch mode. And it's no different when you apply them to CS. You remove the strategy and leave only deathmatch. But whatever. I've been playing CS for a few years and it's never been my favorite game but it was still a huge letdown to see how you ruined it. I was very excited that TG was making a CS:S, I imagined strategy and teamwork like on the NS server but was rather horrified to see the teamplay had been removed and this set of difficult-to-administer rules was added which serves only to oversimplify an otherwise not very complex game and to provide admins with more excuses to chew out and kick players.

02-02-2005, 01:44 PM	#2 (permalink)
><JohnGalt>< Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 433	Re: Professional Football and Professional NS I don’t understand why people argue about the server rules. There are 1000 times more servers that play the style of cs that you like, and only a few that play with the restricted rules. Freedom of choice is the solution to this problem.

02-02-2005, 01:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 17,128	Re: Professional Football and Professional NS I was going to type exactly what JohnGalt just did... I also wanted to ask what the purpose of starting this discussion was? You don't seem to have a point, other than the fact that you don't like to play the way we do. __________________ Become a supporting member! Buy a Tactical Duck! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

02-02-2005, 02:02 PM	#5 (permalink)
Vulcan Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Montreal Age: 30 Posts: 7,576	Re: Professional Football and Professional NS His point was..... We turn the server into rushing zombies and he will be happy!

02-02-2005, 02:09 PM	#6 (permalink)
EssenceOfJudas Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 135	Re: Professional Football and Professional NS yuck. rushing zombies : (

02-02-2005, 02:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
rs_al Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 499	Re: Professional Football and Professional NS My real point is that TG NS is the best NS server I have ever played on. Period. It is full of tactics and teamplay. And somehow this is possible without rewriting NS and constant mothering. Those thousands of server lack something and that is the TG community. I didn't imply that teamplay was any better on those other servers, but if one server could shine above them it would be TG's. Yet the teamplay feels limited. It feels like we are being babied, and have to play a "dumbed down" version. Why can't we have teamplay and the ability to do as we see fit? I admit the defensive team rushing into the opposite spawn and killing everyone while they buy weapons isn't any fun. But neither is spawncamping in the hive or CC blocking in NS. But these things can be handled on an event-by-event basis, there's no need to rewrite CS to remove one or two annoying aspects of it when they can just be handled by professional players instead of a lot of silly rules.

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