Even teams important?

**TheFeniX** · 02-08-2005, 04:25 PM

I seriously don't know the dynamics of CS that well yet. Maybe it doesn't matter, but every other FPS I've played, that extra man is the difference between a win and loss. On the NS server> even teams (or marine odd-man) is not an option, it's a requirement.

On CS, it seems to be a nonchalant kind of thing. I check TAB constantly (another hold-over from NS) to check the status of both my team and my enemies. When I noticed an 8 vs 6 discrepancy against our team, I made it known. My comment was met with "We don't need even teams because we're doing so well." We then proceed to give up 3-4 rounds in a row (did I mention the teams had just become enever before those losses).

One of our teammates made the comment about how we were getting beaten pretty bad. I commented that "being down two men makes it that much harder" which was meant for my team only, but I'm used to using Enter and Y only for text chat in HL. I got the feeling there was some derision on both teams for my comment and I don't see any reference in this the stated rules. I like to lose a game because I'm out-classed or out-gunned, not because I'm out-manned.

What's the take on this? Do I keep making it known the teams are off, or do I keep my mouth shut? I also wonder if there's any reason to make an "odd-man" rule. I wouldn't know as it's hard to make decisions like that while you're busy getting shot in the head.

FOX9 · 02-08-2005, 04:32 PM

This is an excellent topic to bring up. I agree teams should be as even as they can be at all times. If I am gaming and notice an eight/six going on, even if I am on the 8 team, I try to make it known so that we have a fair, clean game. For the tourney, yes, we should absolutely have even teams, even if it is an odd numbered team. Also your totally right, I would rather be out-classed or out-stylized than to be man power plowed

**Tempus** · 02-08-2005, 04:36 PM

Teams should always be as even as possible. I'd even go so far as to say that in general, CTs should always have the extra man, as on de_ maps, they are usually split between two bombites, and on cs_ maps, they are assaulting a defended position.

There is a problem with the reserved slots when the server is full. It seems that if someone comes in on a reserved slot and joins a team before he kicks a player, the player being kicked could be from the other team, thus causing an 8 on 6.

Edit: LOL Wyz..

**Wyzcrak** · 02-08-2005, 05:44 PM

Yes. Marines should definately have the extra man.

* points at Tempus and laughs *

IceCold · 02-08-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempus

Teams should always be as even as possible. I'd even go so far as to say that in general, marines should always have the extra man, as on de_ maps, they are usually split between two bombites, and on cs_ maps, they are assaulting a defended position.

Ahem... Two points:

1. I think you meant counter-terrorists and not Marines...

B) The word Marine, when describing that particular type of warrior, is always capitalized, even when referring to theoretical/future forces...

And I agree, teams should always strive for evenness since we don't have PTB anymore. And, in general, the CTs should have the extra guy when teams are odd.

**Scooper** · 02-08-2005, 07:04 PM

I was wondering how a team has gotten 8 players a couple of times lately.
As supporting members are the only ones who can snag that last slot perhaps we should make it common practice to wait a few seconds to join so we can see which team is losing a player.

FOX9 · 02-08-2005, 07:31 PM

I think he was speaking "marine" in terms of NS (Natural Selection)

HairyNevus · 02-08-2005, 07:48 PM

Glad there's a acutal rule being set down for this, too. Before, I've always joined the losing team when they were even and I came in. Now, I'll go with Tempus's suggestion to join CTs.

There's a big difference in evening teams in NS and CS, though. In CS, no one wants to sacrifice a round, lose a kill and get a death. So, most of the time it's decided by "whoever dies first, switch". In the future, I'll just go over if no one else volunteers (dropping bomb first) but it would be nice if the whole -1 kill didn't happen.

**asch** · 02-08-2005, 07:59 PM

The reserved slots tend to make the teams 8-6... and if someone leaves the server. The server keeps the teams balanced otherwise.

Fairness does not always mean the teams are even however. Just because teams are 7-7 and the score is 8-0...does that mean teams are fair? Fairness is subjective. If you put the best players on one team but teams are even... is that fair?

What I'm trying to say is we want GREAT games on the server. If teams end up 8-6 but the games can go either way... excellent. If players have to switch sides because teams are stacked... then we should do it. We want challenging PCS style games... not even teams.

**TheFeniX** · 02-08-2005, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HairyNevus

In CS, no one wants to sacrifice a round,

You're already at least one man up. You aren't sacrificing anything but your numerical advantage.

Quote:

lose a kill and get a death. So, most of the time it's decided by "whoever dies first, switch". In the future, I'll just go over if no one else volunteers (dropping bomb first) but it would be nice if the whole -1 kill didn't happen.

If playing at [TG] has taught me anything it's: sacrificing your kill to death ratio for the good of the community as a whole is what makes [TG] place worth playing at. I don't need a rules list to tell me that.

Further, the only score that should really concern anyone is the endgame CT vs T score.

**asch** · 02-08-2005, 08:05 PM

If teams are even and you are about to make one team +1... look at the scores first. Take the team that is down (if by quite a bit.) Otherwise, take a look at the the defensive team. They usually have to split up to cover multiple points.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-08-2005, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asch

We want challenging PCS style games... not even teams.

This is flawed unless all agree regarding the present difference, as just one of thirteen players thinking that the players count difference is more detrimental to gameplay than helpful causes the kind of resentment that is more harmful to everyone enjoying themselves than is the potential loss of greatness due to someone ignoring forecasted gameplay dynamics to preserve minimize or remove that players count imbalance.

That having been said, I agree with the spirit of the quote. In practice, I rarely have the confidence in everyone's assessment of the situation that's required for my recommendation to be unbalanced player counts.

**Overlag** · 02-08-2005, 08:57 PM

we used to have PTB on CS1.4-1.6, which would balance the teams by skill not numbers. so sometimes it would be 8 vs 4 etc that made for much better games.....italy is a good example where "fair" teams are unfair.....if you know what i mean

Gooshy · 02-08-2005, 09:00 PM

Well, there's a _little_ stacking going on once in awhile, but it's probably just incidental. It's still irritating when you suck as bad as I do, though.

**asch** · 02-08-2005, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

This is flawed unless all agree regarding the present difference, as just one of thirteen players thinking that the players count difference is more detrimental to gameplay than helpful causes the kind of resentment that is more harmful to everyone enjoying themselves than is the potential loss of greatness due to someone ignoring forecasted gameplay dynamics to preserve minimize or remove that players count imbalance.

Huh? :-) I'm not trying to say I want stacked teams... I'm just pointing out that even teams doesn't mean fair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overlag

we used to have PTB on CS1.4-1.6, which would balance the teams by skill not numbers. so sometimes it would be 8 vs 4 etc that made for much better games.....italy is a good example where "fair" teams are unfair.....if you know what i mean

This is more of what I was trying to get at. Even teams when one team is getting romped 8 to 0 isn't fun.

02-08-2005, 04:25 PM	#1 (permalink)
TheFeniX Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 26 Posts: 4,478	Even teams important? I seriously don't know the dynamics of CS that well yet. Maybe it doesn't matter, but every other FPS I've played, that extra man is the difference between a win and loss. On the NS server> even teams (or marine odd-man) is not an option, it's a requirement. On CS, it seems to be a nonchalant kind of thing. I check TAB constantly (another hold-over from NS) to check the status of both my team and my enemies. When I noticed an 8 vs 6 discrepancy against our team, I made it known. My comment was met with "We don't need even teams because we're doing so well." We then proceed to give up 3-4 rounds in a row (did I mention the teams had just become enever before those losses). One of our teammates made the comment about how we were getting beaten pretty bad. I commented that "being down two men makes it that much harder" which was meant for my team only, but I'm used to using Enter and Y only for text chat in HL. I got the feeling there was some derision on both teams for my comment and I don't see any reference in this the stated rules. I like to lose a game because I'm out-classed or out-gunned, not because I'm out-manned. What's the take on this? Do I keep making it known the teams are off, or do I keep my mouth shut? I also wonder if there's any reason to make an "odd-man" rule. I wouldn't know as it's hard to make decisions like that while you're busy getting shot in the head. __________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TheFeniX's Steam Profile TG's Team Fortress 2 Steam Group

02-08-2005, 04:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
FOX9 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Florida Age: 23 Posts: 112	Re: Even teams important? This is an excellent topic to bring up. I agree teams should be as even as they can be at all times. If I am gaming and notice an eight/six going on, even if I am on the 8 team, I try to make it known so that we have a fair, clean game. For the tourney, yes, we should absolutely have even teams, even if it is an odd numbered team. Also your totally right, I would rather be out-classed or out-stylized than to be man power plowed

02-08-2005, 04:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
Tempus Join Date: May 2003 Location: Miami, FL Age: 38 Posts: 8,252	Re: Even teams important? Teams should always be as even as possible. I'd even go so far as to say that in general, CTs should always have the extra man, as on de_ maps, they are usually split between two bombites, and on cs_ maps, they are assaulting a defended position. There is a problem with the reserved slots when the server is full. It seems that if someone comes in on a reserved slot and joins a team before he kicks a player, the player being kicked could be from the other team, thus causing an 8 on 6. Edit: LOL Wyz.. Last edited by Tempus; 02-08-2005 at 05:46 PM.

02-08-2005, 05:44 PM	#4 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: Even teams important? Yes. Marines should definately have the extra man. * points at Tempus and laughs * __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

02-08-2005, 07:04 PM	#6 (permalink)
Scooper Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Georgia, USA Age: 39 Posts: 602	Re: Even teams important? I was wondering how a team has gotten 8 players a couple of times lately. As supporting members are the only ones who can snag that last slot perhaps we should make it common practice to wait a few seconds to join so we can see which team is losing a player. __________________ Chuck Norris can believe it's not butter

02-08-2005, 07:31 PM	#7 (permalink)
FOX9 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Florida Age: 23 Posts: 112	Re: Even teams important? I think he was speaking "marine" in terms of NS (Natural Selection) __________________ We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dream. Wandering by lone sea breakers, and sitting by desolate streams. World losers and world forsakers, for whom the pale moon gleams. Yet we are movers and the shakers of the world forever it seems.

02-08-2005, 07:48 PM	#8 (permalink)
HairyNevus Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Age: 20 Posts: 869	Re: Even teams important? Glad there's a acutal rule being set down for this, too. Before, I've always joined the losing team when they were even and I came in. Now, I'll go with Tempus's suggestion to join CTs. There's a big difference in evening teams in NS and CS, though. In CS, no one wants to sacrifice a round, lose a kill and get a death. So, most of the time it's decided by "whoever dies first, switch". In the future, I'll just go over if no one else volunteers (dropping bomb first) but it would be nice if the whole -1 kill didn't happen. __________________ "Adios...blimp" -Assy McGee "All of the body parts they will never find, except all the peices that I saved." -Dickie Moist "Mmmmm, Duraflame." -Mountain Man "I don't like Sci-Fi, I love LOVE LOVE it!" - Gordon Crisp

02-08-2005, 07:59 PM	#9 (permalink)
asch Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Mill, SC Age: 33 Posts: 9,972	Re: Even teams important? The reserved slots tend to make the teams 8-6... and if someone leaves the server. The server keeps the teams balanced otherwise. Fairness does not always mean the teams are even however. Just because teams are 7-7 and the score is 8-0...does that mean teams are fair? Fairness is subjective. If you put the best players on one team but teams are even... is that fair? What I'm trying to say is we want GREAT games on the server. If teams end up 8-6 but the games can go either way... excellent. If players have to switch sides because teams are stacked... then we should do it. We want challenging PCS style games... not even teams.

02-08-2005, 08:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
asch Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Mill, SC Age: 33 Posts: 9,972	Re: Even teams important? If teams are even and you are about to make one team +1... look at the scores first. Take the team that is down (if by quite a bit.) Otherwise, take a look at the the defensive team. They usually have to split up to cover multiple points.

02-08-2005, 08:57 PM	#13 (permalink)
Overlag Join Date: May 2003 Location: NE Outer London, UK Age: 26 Posts: 1,540	Re: Even teams important? we used to have PTB on CS1.4-1.6, which would balance the teams by skill not numbers. so sometimes it would be 8 vs 4 etc that made for much better games.....italy is a good example where "fair" teams are unfair.....if you know what i mean __________________ From Adam Webb

02-08-2005, 09:00 PM	#14 (permalink)
Gooshy Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 80	Re: Even teams important? Well, there's a _little_ stacking going on once in awhile, but it's probably just incidental. It's still irritating when you suck as bad as I do, though.

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