Round times...to long? - Page 2

**Pokerface** · 02-17-2005, 11:19 AM

And then CS went away for a while.

CSS comes in after a long absence of Counter-Strike, and brings with it new players, new maps (and movable objects in the maps), new tactics, and new strategies. What worked for CS may or may not apply to CSS, and while I appreciate the years of tuning that went into the seven minute round time for the original, I am worried (too easily, maybe, but it's still there) about the fact that you're unwilling to even discuss the tuning of the updated version.

**Apophis** · 02-17-2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

And then CS went away for a while.

CSS comes in after a long absence of Counter-Strike, and brings with it new players, new maps (and movable objects in the maps), new tactics, and new strategies. What worked for CS may or may not apply to CSS, and while I appreciate the years of tuning that went into the seven minute round time for the original, I am worried (too easily, maybe, but it's still there) about the fact that you're unwilling to even discuss the tuning of the updated version.

Actually, the 7 minute timers were around for quite a while BEFORE the interest in CS died out. One did not have to do with the other. CS died at TG largely because the players shifted to new games that were released, not because of the 7 minute round timer.

As far as discussing the tuning of the updated version, I have read all of the threads in detail regarding the round timer and have yet to see any compelling reason to shorten the round times. The fact that objects are moveable, we have new physics, and the game is more pleasing to the eye, it's still Counter-Strike and we're still playing almost all the same old maps. The fact I don't want to force a team to rush to complete their objectives hasn't changed, the physics and moveable objects don't have an impact on that.

New players also don't change what PCS is all about, PCS is what attracts the right minded players to TG. PCS also isn't for everybody. People might like some parts of it and not others, not like anything at all, or might understand and enjoy the whole package. PCS is primarily for those who understand and enjoy the whole package.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-17-2005, 12:19 PM

I can't think of another setting of such importance on the server for which our most compelling argument is "it's always been that way."

The only compelling argument I've seen for preserving the seven minute timer is potential. That is to say that what is promised by that seven minute timer does not happen with any frequency that merits recognition.

I've been playing on this server for months and have seen the timer run out one time (I don't recall seeing it run out on the old server). I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen the timer drop below 1:00. Is this observation so different from everyone else's (honest question)? Yes, yes, yes.. ideals, ideals, ideals.. I'm all for them. My observations suggest that no player.. no team.. needs seven minutes to complete even the most incredible strategy on such simple maps.

Sure, I can see it if we had larger or more complex maps (which I do want), or perhaps more players (which I don't want).

Between my KVM and Apophis laying down the law, I can live with a seven minute timer. I just wish someone would make a compelling argument for keeping the thing instead of demanding a compelling argument for changing it.

I really do hope the majority's observations are different. I really do hope people are taking value from all of that time frequently. The server's settings should be configured such that the stakeholders take value.

**Apophis** · 02-17-2005, 12:24 PM

As more complex maps are added, you will see that timer get down much closer to the 0 mark than it does presently. The stock CS maps are very simplistic in comparison to the legacy CS maps made by third parties. I'm sure these maps will make their way to CS Source in due time though.

The compelling argument for keeping it is to allow for potential of more advanced tactics and strategy on more complex maps as they become available.

On the flip side, I don't feel that requiring compelling arguments to keep settings as they are is the right way to go. That opens up the requirement for me to make an argument for every single setting on the server to justify the way the thing is configured.

Why is the bomb timer 45 seconds? Justify it!
Why is the maxrate set at 15000? Justify it!
Why is the max cl_cmdrate set to 30? Justify it!

Just not an avenue I want to go down.

DON.MAC · 02-17-2005, 12:41 PM

Points:
A long round timer gives the offensive team an advantage.
A long round timer causes long periods of waiting for players who are both dead and alive.

I think the first one is kind of a big deal.

Counterpoints:
A long round timer gives the offensive team an advantage.
Do not question the round timer.
Suck it up.
It helps to piss off the undesirables and make them want to leave.
The 7 minute timer is the result of a few years of fine tuning.

The last one is the only one I find interesting.

By just looking at the existing server rules and settings I would guess that the offensive team has an unfair advantage in terms of available tactics, conditions for winning, and fun. The offensive team has a large safe zone on every map. This safe zone, combined with the long time limit, only works in their favor. The defensive team can defend a relatively small portion of the map. The offensive team can either kill the defensive team or complete their objective. The defensive team is forced to kill the offensive team. I have only seen the timer run out once. The offensive team has a lot more tactical flexibility than the defensive team, and I don't think it is a coincidence that the posts in the "Awesome time" thread comment on how fun it was playing on the offensive team.

My suspicions could very well be wrong, though. For all I know a defensive team playing defensively justifies all of the advantages given to the offensive team. I think it would be interesting to see the statistics for team wins on each of the maps. I would really like to see if there is any overall bias towards the offensive team. If there is a noticeable bias then that might be a compelling argument to shorten the round timer. Also, would there ever be a way to have the timer set differently for different maps (due to varying complexities)?

**Wyzcrak** · 02-17-2005, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apophis

On the flip side, I don't feel that requiring compelling arguments to keep settings as they are is the right way to go. Just not an avenue I want to go down.

I think that making a compelling argument for server settings is what proves to you that you've done it right. If you can't provide a compelling argument, you have to wonder why the setting is configured that way. If you can't provide a compelling argument, the person questioning the setting is not at fault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apophis

The compelling argument for keeping it is to allow for potential of more advanced tactics and strategy on more complex maps as they become available.

That is solid once the maps arrive to complement it.

If the "complex maps" are as central to the compelling argument as the above quote would have the reader believe, we are left without a compelling reason for the seven minute timer given the present maps offering on the server.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-17-2005, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DON.MAC

have the timer set differently for different maps

Good idea.

**CingularDuality** · 02-17-2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

I think that making a compelling argument for server settings is what proves to you that you've done it right. If you can't provide a compelling argument, you have to wonder why the setting is configured that way. If you can't provide a compelling argument, the person questioning the setting is not at fault.

How about this for a compelling argument: PCS has found, over time, that a 7 minute timer is long enough for the type of gameplay that we want on our server. We've found that it is very rare to need 15 minutes per round to artificially limit the offensive team and their objective. This type of gameplay is what built this community and attracts the kind of players that we do. We're not going to compromise our gameplay for a few people that like our gameplay overall, but that want to water down certain aspects of it. PCS is unique and it's what attracts people to our server. "Pubbiecizing" the server will only serve to make the server less unique and therefore more difficult to appeal to the niche of players that makes TacticalGamer as great as it is...

**Wyzcrak** · 02-17-2005, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

How about this for a compelling argument: PCS has found, over time, that a 7 minute timer is long enough for the type of gameplay that we want on our server. We've found that it is very rare to need 15 minutes per round to artificially limit the offensive team and their objective.

You offer fifteen minutes as a more unjustifiable extreme? If so, that makes sense to me.

But is it not also true that, to use your words, we've found it is very rare to need 7 minutes per round to artificially limit the offensive team and their objective?

K2_the_Turtle · 02-17-2005, 03:57 PM

It's not very often that I'm the last person alive on the offensive team...but when it happen, I go really darn slow and feel pressured to hurry up even with the rounds as they are currently, 7 minutes.

My tactics are basically:

1. Pop my head out.
2. Shoot one short burst.
3. Retreat to a different location.
4. Repeat.

Doing this can take a long time to get anywhere....

**Pokerface** · 02-17-2005, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

How about this for a compelling argument: PCS has found, over time, that a 7 minute timer is long enough for the type of gameplay that we want on our server. We've found that it is very rare to need 15 minutes per round to artificially limit the offensive team and their objective. This type of gameplay is what built this community and attracts the kind of players that we do. We're not going to compromise our gameplay for a few people that like our gameplay overall, but that want to water down certain aspects of it. PCS is unique and it's what attracts people to our server. "Pubbiecizing" the server will only serve to make the server less unique and therefore more difficult to appeal to the niche of players that makes TacticalGamer as great as it is...

Using setting that aren't the default doesn't make TG's gameplay special just for having it set differently. On the same token, having a setting that's the same as a standard install isn't "pubbiecizing" the server.

If the seven minutes are being fully used each and every game, then hooray for us. Otherwise, setting it to X minutes (where X < 7) isn't compromising gameplay.

rs_al · 02-17-2005, 04:23 PM

I've never seen the 7 minutes used. The reason there is a round timer is that it eventually expires. If they intended for it never to expire, it would not be included in the game. The fact that you choose a value of 7 minutes to set it at implies that you think timing is an issue. However, the fact that it never expires would imply the value chosen was completely wrong.

Quote:

Why is the bomb timer 45 seconds? Justify it!
Why is the maxrate set at 15000? Justify it!
Why is the max cl_cmdrate set to 30? Justify it!

Easily.
Why is the bomb timer set at 45 seconds? If you set it higher, it would never go off. Either the CT's would get wiped out or they would defuse. Having a bomb timer of 7 minutes would pretty much defeat the purpose of planting the bomb in the first place., the round would just turn into a kill the opposing team like the hostage maps currently are. The fact that sometimes the bomb goes off and sometimes it doesn't shows that it is a well chosen value. On my server, I adjusted the value some times. Sometimes I would set it to a smaller value or a bigger value, based on how the games were being played out.
cl_cmdrate is chosen based on network latency and the goal of having at least 30 frames per second to ensure smooth animation on the player screen. maxrate is chosen based on how much bandwidth wants to be allocated. What a bad example. What's next, "Why is the mp_friendlyfire set to 1? Justify it!"?

If the 7 minutes is never used, or when it is used it is being abused, then it might need to be looked at.

When you "Show those pubbie n00bs" how cs is meant to be played by camping in a stupid spot for 5 minutes (Tactically camping I mean), all you really do is show what an arrogant jerk you are. There are hundreds of thousands of CS players, it's nice to know that you think that all but maybe 30 of them are "idiots" and not only are you dedicated to making sure they know this, but you've decided to waste 5 minutes of everyone else's time to do so. Thanks for your great service to humanity.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-17-2005, 04:28 PM

al, you've got a lot to learn about presentation.

Your valid points are ignored when they're drowning in sarcasm and an insistence on being right.

Lose the sarcasm.

Lose the hostility.

Present arguments with a sincere effort toward resolution, not just being right.

**Tempus** · 02-17-2005, 04:37 PM

The fact is that it's 7 minutes, and it's going to stay 7 minutes. This thread has become more about theory than practice.

Could a number other than 7 be ideal? Possibly.
Is presently having it set to 7 hurting gameplay? Who knows, but not likely in any significant manner.
Is anyone who enjoys our style of play going to go play somewhere else because it's at 7? I doubt it.

Think of 7 as being a number that we need to grow into.. We're not using it now, but we should. And it's a safe bet that a month from now we'll be using more of those 7 minutes than we are now.

**Pokerface** · 02-17-2005, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempus

The fact is that it's 7 minutes, and it's going to stay 7 minutes. This thread has become more about theory than practice.

It's only more theory than practice because of the blanket statements made that it's going to stay at 7 minutes despite any valid argument to the contrary. That's quite the theme in this neck of the woods.

02-17-2005, 11:19 AM	#16 (permalink)
Pokerface Join Date: May 2003 Location: MD, USA Age: 29 Posts: 5,722	Re: Round times...to long? And then CS went away for a while. CSS comes in after a long absence of Counter-Strike, and brings with it new players, new maps (and movable objects in the maps), new tactics, and new strategies. What worked for CS may or may not apply to CSS, and while I appreciate the years of tuning that went into the seven minute round time for the original, I am worried (too easily, maybe, but it's still there) about the fact that you're unwilling to even discuss the tuning of the updated version. __________________ NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues. Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality. <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

02-17-2005, 12:19 PM	#18 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,139	Re: Round times...to long? I can't think of another setting of such importance on the server for which our most compelling argument is "it's always been that way." The only compelling argument I've seen for preserving the seven minute timer is potential. That is to say that what is promised by that seven minute timer does not happen with any frequency that merits recognition. I've been playing on this server for months and have seen the timer run out one time (I don't recall seeing it run out on the old server). I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen the timer drop below 1:00. Is this observation so different from everyone else's (honest question)? Yes, yes, yes.. ideals, ideals, ideals.. I'm all for them. My observations suggest that no player.. no team.. needs seven minutes to complete even the most incredible strategy on such simple maps. Sure, I can see it if we had larger or more complex maps (which I do want), or perhaps more players (which I don't want). Between my KVM and Apophis laying down the law, I can live with a seven minute timer. I just wish someone would make a compelling argument for keeping the thing instead of demanding a compelling argument for changing it. I really do hope the majority's observations are different. I really do hope people are taking value from all of that time frequently. The server's settings should be configured such that the stakeholders take value. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

02-17-2005, 12:24 PM	#19 (permalink)
Apophis Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Rhode Island, USA Age: 36 Posts: 8,919	Re: Round times...to long? As more complex maps are added, you will see that timer get down much closer to the 0 mark than it does presently. The stock CS maps are very simplistic in comparison to the legacy CS maps made by third parties. I'm sure these maps will make their way to CS Source in due time though. The compelling argument for keeping it is to allow for potential of more advanced tactics and strategy on more complex maps as they become available. On the flip side, I don't feel that requiring compelling arguments to keep settings as they are is the right way to go. That opens up the requirement for me to make an argument for every single setting on the server to justify the way the thing is configured. Why is the bomb timer 45 seconds? Justify it! Why is the maxrate set at 15000? Justify it! Why is the max cl_cmdrate set to 30? Justify it! Just not an avenue I want to go down. __________________ Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

02-17-2005, 12:41 PM	#20 (permalink)
DON.MAC Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 162	Re: Round times...to long? Points: A long round timer gives the offensive team an advantage. A long round timer causes long periods of waiting for players who are both dead and alive. I think the first one is kind of a big deal. Counterpoints: A long round timer gives the offensive team an advantage. Do not question the round timer. Suck it up. It helps to piss off the undesirables and make them want to leave. The 7 minute timer is the result of a few years of fine tuning. The last one is the only one I find interesting. By just looking at the existing server rules and settings I would guess that the offensive team has an unfair advantage in terms of available tactics, conditions for winning, and fun. The offensive team has a large safe zone on every map. This safe zone, combined with the long time limit, only works in their favor. The defensive team can defend a relatively small portion of the map. The offensive team can either kill the defensive team or complete their objective. The defensive team is forced to kill the offensive team. I have only seen the timer run out once. The offensive team has a lot more tactical flexibility than the defensive team, and I don't think it is a coincidence that the posts in the "Awesome time" thread comment on how fun it was playing on the offensive team. My suspicions could very well be wrong, though. For all I know a defensive team playing defensively justifies all of the advantages given to the offensive team. I think it would be interesting to see the statistics for team wins on each of the maps. I would really like to see if there is any overall bias towards the offensive team. If there is a noticeable bias then that might be a compelling argument to shorten the round timer. Also, would there ever be a way to have the timer set differently for different maps (due to varying complexities)?

02-17-2005, 03:57 PM	#25 (permalink)
K2_the_Turtle Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 275	Re: Round times...to long? It's not very often that I'm the last person alive on the offensive team...but when it happen, I go really darn slow and feel pressured to hurry up even with the rounds as they are currently, 7 minutes. My tactics are basically: 1. Pop my head out. 2. Shoot one short burst. 3. Retreat to a different location. 4. Repeat. Doing this can take a long time to get anywhere.... __________________ It's a game. Keep it real. Keep it fun. -Keith

02-17-2005, 04:28 PM	#28 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,139	Re: Round times...to long? al, you've got a lot to learn about presentation. Your valid points are ignored when they're drowning in sarcasm and an insistence on being right. Lose the sarcasm. Lose the hostility. Present arguments with a sincere effort toward resolution, not just being right. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

02-17-2005, 04:37 PM	#29 (permalink)
Tempus Join Date: May 2003 Location: Miami, FL Age: 38 Posts: 8,170	Re: Round times...to long? The fact is that it's 7 minutes, and it's going to stay 7 minutes. This thread has become more about theory than practice. Could a number other than 7 be ideal? Possibly. Is presently having it set to 7 hurting gameplay? Who knows, but not likely in any significant manner. Is anyone who enjoys our style of play going to go play somewhere else because it's at 7? I doubt it. Think of 7 as being a number that we need to grow into.. We're not using it now, but we should. And it's a safe bet that a month from now we'll be using more of those 7 minutes than we are now.

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