Disappointment

**TheFeniX** · 03-20-2005, 03:41 AM

I might not be the most easy going online gamer out there, but there comes a time that I can go even further from my usual pissy-self to full-blown disgust at the way some games are played.

After voicing a few of these concerns to Tempus in game with my usual "I just don't think we.... screw it.. nevermind, I'll just post about it on the forums," I decided to actually make good on my threat.

Lately, I've had the feeling that many CS players on our servers are not living up to the spirit of PCS. You might claim that I haven't been playing long enough to make that assumption, but I think I've been gaming objective based games long enough to know when a game is just not being played right.

This particular game took place on militia, when I was on CTs. I felt the Ts did a piss-poor job of acting like true terrorists. After being ambushed constantly outside the house and in the tunnels by multiple (not just one) Ts, I had a good chance to spectate how they were playing. I think in only the first 4 rounds was there actually a T in sight of the hostages. The rest of the time, they had the entire team split up between camping the tunnels below and the front door.

Hmm, no hostages out there.
None down here either.

Explain why anyone would be in the sewers when they are defending their home? Why would I sit outside my house, rather than shoot from the safety of the roof or window (which gives me elevation). The answer is most likely that I'm a frag monkey and FeniX hates me.

I'm not even going to bring up that it took 2 1/2 rounds for Ts to even the teams. Now this isn't the best example as the T's team was mostly full of what I assume are pubs more than regs, but this isn't a single incident.

I have routinely noticed (even among TG members) the defenders pushing the limit of what they can get away with, without being slayed. Turning what could be a good all around match into a "twitch-fest."

And I'm not complaining about sending one or two team members to outlying areas for recon. I'm talking about the whole team staying at the very limit of their objective, slowly pushing the boundaries out. Basically, it's just annoying the crap out of me.

I have the same issues with compound (which I'm all for removing). Why is it when I'm on Ts, I am inevitably the only one who is anywhere near the hostages? Because the rest of my team is way up front hoping to garner as many kills as possible.

Why was I able to scout 5 Ts when they had both numbers and defensible positions on me? Because they wanted that kill so bad, they gave up all their advantages for it.

Cmon people, do the math: You've got an AK with Iron Sights. Your enemy has a scoped rifle that's accurate as Hell, but he has to come to you. Why aren't you waiting and engaging him at close-range?

Yes, I know not all games will be perfect, but I'm asking has anyone else noticed the discrepancies I'm talking about? The only reason I play CS:S is because TG offers it, and they offer a play-style of it I find enjoyable (as opposed to something like UT2k4). I'm starting to get annoyed at it though.

Nightfire · 03-20-2005, 03:57 AM

you know what...it's all good

as long as your ultimate intention is to defend/offend, then make it happen.
it's a game, lighten up

><JohnGalt>< · 03-20-2005, 08:37 AM

I respectfully dissagree with some points you made. I believe that guarding the house is as good as guarding whats in the house. To that end having someine in the serwers, i feel, is fine.

------Cmon people, do the math: You've got an AK with Iron Sights. Your enemy has a scoped rifle that's accurate as Hell, but he has to come to you. Why aren't you waiting and engaging him at close-range?--------

This point I agree with. It drives me mad when a team mate is killed by a sniper, then the rest of the team sticks thier heads out one at a time at the exact same place. The end result is a nice pile ts and one happy ct. (This is especially true on Italy.)

I agree so much that....

------Cmon people, do the math: You've got an AK with Iron Sights. Your enemy has a scoped rifle that's accurate as Hell, but he has to come to you. Why aren't you waiting and engaging him at close-range?--------

This point I agree with. It drives me mad when a team mate is killed by a sniper, then the rest of the team sticks thier heads out one at a time at the exact same place. The end result is a nice pile ts and one happy ct. (This is especially true on Italy.)

**Vulcan** · 03-20-2005, 10:08 AM

heh, I have noticed more action from admins. But some of the maps have larger areas for the teams to move around in, like compound. The whole thing is if their not helping the objective then they will learn one way or another, Either by being slayed or being killed. Compound IMO is for more experienced players to be played right, Otherwise it turns into a frag fest. I have had good matches with tg peeps there though.

**Tempus** · 03-20-2005, 11:13 AM

I don't see why the Ts should not be allowed out in front of the house, but I can see why they might not have any business inside the sewers.. But at the same time, what does it matter? They're stil defending an objective, they're still relatively close to the house, and they're not taking the battle to the CTs. That's one less T available to guard the top, so the Ts are taking a chance when they send someone down there. Some flexibility in strategy has to be allowed for.

But in general, I really do agree with your sentiments about players pushing the limits of where they should be. For example, on dust2, CTs will rush to the double doors on long A to ambush Ts as they come through the doors. Of course, this makes the CTs very vulnerable to short-A attacks, so a smart T team can take advantage of this.

In conclusion, I understand what you're saying, but it's a difficult situation to deal with. Worthy of discussion, though.

Root · 03-20-2005, 01:40 PM

I've noticed many people not falling back to their objective lately. I've been provoked into using landmines in some instances, because console messages are simply being ignored.

Root

><JohnGalt>< · 03-20-2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempus

I don't see why the Ts should not be allowed out in front of the house, but I can see why they might not have any business inside the sewers.. But at the same time, what does it matter? They're stil defending an objective, they're still relatively close to the house, and they're not taking the battle to the CTs. That's one less T available to guard the top, so the Ts are taking a chance when they send someone down there. Some flexibility in strategy has to be allowed for.

But in general, I really do agree with your sentiments about players pushing the limits of where they should be. For example, on dust2, CTs will rush to the double doors on long A to ambush Ts as they come through the doors. Of course, this makes the CTs very vulnerable to short-A attacks, so a smart T team can take advantage of this.

In conclusion, I understand what you're saying, but it's a difficult situation to deal with. Worthy of discussion, though.

The sewers are a legit place for ts. It’s an entry point and it must be defended. There is no way that a group of people guarding a compound would not defend an access point.

**Wyzcrak** · 03-20-2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ><JohnGalt><

There is no way that a group of people guarding a compound would not defend an access point.

A group of people would choose not to defend an access point if it left three others completely undefended.

**_Ender_** · 03-20-2005, 03:05 PM

Besides, you can guard that point with out being in the sewer.

Its all about balance. Its pointless to have somebody in the sewer, if the back door is wide open.

7 Ts The defense should be like this

1T should be on the roof as scout (or with a scout)

2Ts should be inside

1T in the sewer as a scout. If the CTs rush the sewer, then instead of engaging, he should back off and inform his team mates.

3Ts in the backyard to gaurd the back door. And can provide cover if anybody manages to get into the house. Also there in case the T in the sewer is killed by rushing CTs

The idea is not to spread yourself out too thin, yet have everything covered. If the player on the roof is dead, then you know that CTs are in the front yard, so the defenders inside the house should be more alart (along with the players in the backyard area.). If the player in the sewer is killed (which he shouldnt be, unless he tried to engage the CTs, which is stooopid). Then you know CTs are coming from the sewer. Everybody should have a cover spot, and everybody should know where to go in case heavy action comes out.

><JohnGalt>< · 03-20-2005, 04:07 PM

also note that when i go into the sweres I only stay a min or so before I relocated my lazy ass

**asch** · 03-20-2005, 05:54 PM

IMO, all these are different tactics & strategies. Each has their place. You can't always fault players for going with a strategy they feel is best.

Now on to the hard part of intent. If the intent of the player is not to fullfil their objective, but rather ambush or frag, then I have a problem with it.

**TheFeniX** · 03-20-2005, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightfire

you know what...it's all good

as long as your ultimate intention is to defend/offend, then make it happen.
it's a game, lighten up

Nightfire, don't take this the wrong way as we've been gaming together for a while:

You need to ask yourself if anything you just posted is relevant to this thread. I pay and play exclusively on TG for the specific reason that I can expect a higher quality game. If I didn't care, I'd be playing on servers where the admin thinks loading all the annoucer wavs from Unreal Tournament is cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ><JohnGalt><

I respectfully dissagree with some points you made.

That's awesome, I love a good discussion.

Quote:

I believe that guarding the house is as good as guarding whats in the house. To that end having someine in the serwers, i feel, is fine.

I'm not opposed to having 1 (MAYBE 2 T's down there). What I'm opposed to is seeing three terrorists just camping the end of the tunnel before the first ladder (Which in my opinion is WAY to close to CT spawn), firing randomly at incoming CTs. While the other 4 on their team are camping on top of or infornt of the house, taking advantage of only two VERY large choke points the CTs have. It just turns into a frag-fest and I also feel it's more of a map flaw than anything.

It's how you tell a CS pubber from a Tactical Gamer. Why would T's be putting themsleves into a situation like that when it all comes down to random luck? If we push hard and beat them down, we have NO opposition once we breach the house.

When a team is relying on either individual twitching or luck to win their rounds: I feel they are failing in a PCS game.

**section-8** · 03-20-2005, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

If I didn't care, I'd be playing on servers where the admin thinks loading all the annoucer wavs from Unreal Tournament is cool.

Aieeesh. That is seriously the most annoying thing in the entire world. Or stupid quotes from movies that get played? AND THAT I HAVE TO &$@#'ing download before i join your server. Ok...the discussion isnt about that, its about TG....

Asch was right...its all about intent...lets say you have 7 players(since militia is the example) . 3 are outside the front of the house laying down fire and 3 are in the tunnels laying down fire and one is in with the hostages.... The intent is to keep those choke points closed... no one is rushing persay and their ultimate goal is to defend the hostages. They simply do it by keeping the 2 main chokes closed rather than having to worry about whether the CTs are upstairs, in the back yard, in the living room, on the roof, coming through the window in the garage...

By camping IN the tunnels (or just outside of them...i think IN is a lot easier) and having another squad outside the house or on the roof...it essentially creates two points from which you can fall back from if needed. You may disagree with the strategy...but the INTENT is that we keep the CTs away from our hostages....

Meh...ramble on...

**TheFeniX** · 03-20-2005, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by section-8

By camping IN the tunnels (or just outside of them...i think IN is a lot easier) and having another squad outside the house or on the roof...it essentially creates two points from which you can fall back from if needed. You may disagree with the strategy...but the INTENT is that we keep the CTs away from our hostages....

There was absolutely no voice/text communication on the T team during that round. I even noticed today that defender communication on Militia was spotty at best. The Intent seems to be that they are looking for what will gives them as many kills as possible.

The Muffin Man · 03-20-2005, 09:18 PM

How about we just line every T up along with the hostages so that you know where they are exactly everytime that you breech the house?

Quote:

I felt the Ts did a piss-poor job of acting like true terrorists.

How do "true terrorists" act? Do you know one, or are you a "true terrorist" yourself and have a point of refference? If we knew how a "true terrorist" were to act we would still have a standing World Trade Center.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for the T's rushing CT spawn every round, but isn't not knowing exactly where a T will be more realistic? Realistically wouldn't there be booby trapped doors and hostages with bombs strapped to them? Realistically wouldn't there be suicide bombers and chemical weapons?

This is a game, try and just have a good time instead of taking it so serious. Just because your tactics differ from another's doesn't necessarily make their's wrong....

03-20-2005, 03:41 AM	#1 (permalink)
TheFeniX Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 26 Posts: 4,447	Disappointment I might not be the most easy going online gamer out there, but there comes a time that I can go even further from my usual pissy-self to full-blown disgust at the way some games are played. After voicing a few of these concerns to Tempus in game with my usual "I just don't think we.... screw it.. nevermind, I'll just post about it on the forums," I decided to actually make good on my threat. Lately, I've had the feeling that many CS players on our servers are not living up to the spirit of PCS. You might claim that I haven't been playing long enough to make that assumption, but I think I've been gaming objective based games long enough to know when a game is just not being played right. This particular game took place on militia, when I was on CTs. I felt the Ts did a piss-poor job of acting like true terrorists. After being ambushed constantly outside the house and in the tunnels by multiple (not just one) Ts, I had a good chance to spectate how they were playing. I think in only the first 4 rounds was there actually a T in sight of the hostages. The rest of the time, they had the entire team split up between camping the tunnels below and the front door. Hmm, no hostages out there. None down here either. Explain why anyone would be in the sewers when they are defending their home? Why would I sit outside my house, rather than shoot from the safety of the roof or window (which gives me elevation). The answer is most likely that I'm a frag monkey and FeniX hates me. I'm not even going to bring up that it took 2 1/2 rounds for Ts to even the teams. Now this isn't the best example as the T's team was mostly full of what I assume are pubs more than regs, but this isn't a single incident. I have routinely noticed (even among TG members) the defenders pushing the limit of what they can get away with, without being slayed. Turning what could be a good all around match into a "twitch-fest." And I'm not complaining about sending one or two team members to outlying areas for recon. I'm talking about the whole team staying at the very limit of their objective, slowly pushing the boundaries out. Basically, it's just annoying the crap out of me. I have the same issues with compound (which I'm all for removing). Why is it when I'm on Ts, I am inevitably the only one who is anywhere near the hostages? Because the rest of my team is way up front hoping to garner as many kills as possible. Why was I able to scout 5 Ts when they had both numbers and defensible positions on me? Because they wanted that kill so bad, they gave up all their advantages for it. Cmon people, do the math: You've got an AK with Iron Sights. Your enemy has a scoped rifle that's accurate as Hell, but he has to come to you. Why aren't you waiting and engaging him at close-range? Yes, I know not all games will be perfect, but I'm asking has anyone else noticed the discrepancies I'm talking about? The only reason I play CS:S is because TG offers it, and they offer a play-style of it I find enjoyable (as opposed to something like UT2k4). I'm starting to get annoyed at it though. __________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TheFeniX's Steam Profile TG's Team Fortress 2 Steam Group

03-20-2005, 03:57 AM	#2 (permalink)
Nightfire Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United States Age: 22 Posts: 795	Re: Disappointment you know what...it's all good as long as your ultimate intention is to defend/offend, then make it happen. it's a game, lighten up

03-20-2005, 08:37 AM	#3 (permalink)
><JohnGalt>< Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 433	Re: Disappointment I respectfully dissagree with some points you made. I believe that guarding the house is as good as guarding whats in the house. To that end having someine in the serwers, i feel, is fine. ------Cmon people, do the math: You've got an AK with Iron Sights. Your enemy has a scoped rifle that's accurate as Hell, but he has to come to you. Why aren't you waiting and engaging him at close-range?-------- This point I agree with. It drives me mad when a team mate is killed by a sniper, then the rest of the team sticks thier heads out one at a time at the exact same place. The end result is a nice pile ts and one happy ct. (This is especially true on Italy.) I agree so much that.... ------Cmon people, do the math: You've got an AK with Iron Sights. Your enemy has a scoped rifle that's accurate as Hell, but he has to come to you. Why aren't you waiting and engaging him at close-range?-------- This point I agree with. It drives me mad when a team mate is killed by a sniper, then the rest of the team sticks thier heads out one at a time at the exact same place. The end result is a nice pile ts and one happy ct. (This is especially true on Italy.) __________________

03-20-2005, 10:08 AM	#4 (permalink)
Vulcan Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Montreal Age: 29 Posts: 7,178	Re: Disappointment heh, I have noticed more action from admins. But some of the maps have larger areas for the teams to move around in, like compound. The whole thing is if their not helping the objective then they will learn one way or another, Either by being slayed or being killed. Compound IMO is for more experienced players to be played right, Otherwise it turns into a frag fest. I have had good matches with tg peeps there though.

03-20-2005, 11:13 AM	#5 (permalink)
Tempus Join Date: May 2003 Location: Miami, FL Age: 38 Posts: 8,104	Re: Disappointment I don't see why the Ts should not be allowed out in front of the house, but I can see why they might not have any business inside the sewers.. But at the same time, what does it matter? They're stil defending an objective, they're still relatively close to the house, and they're not taking the battle to the CTs. That's one less T available to guard the top, so the Ts are taking a chance when they send someone down there. Some flexibility in strategy has to be allowed for. But in general, I really do agree with your sentiments about players pushing the limits of where they should be. For example, on dust2, CTs will rush to the double doors on long A to ambush Ts as they come through the doors. Of course, this makes the CTs very vulnerable to short-A attacks, so a smart T team can take advantage of this. In conclusion, I understand what you're saying, but it's a difficult situation to deal with. Worthy of discussion, though.

03-20-2005, 01:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
Root Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South east england Posts: 8,839	Re: Disappointment I've noticed many people not falling back to their objective lately. I've been provoked into using landmines in some instances, because console messages are simply being ignored. Root

03-20-2005, 03:05 PM	#9 (permalink)
_Ender_ Join Date: May 2003 Location: I am lost, if you know where I am then please feel free to tell me. Age: 29 Posts: 2,048	Re: Disappointment Besides, you can guard that point with out being in the sewer. Its all about balance. Its pointless to have somebody in the sewer, if the back door is wide open. 7 Ts The defense should be like this 1T should be on the roof as scout (or with a scout) 2Ts should be inside 1T in the sewer as a scout. If the CTs rush the sewer, then instead of engaging, he should back off and inform his team mates. 3Ts in the backyard to gaurd the back door. And can provide cover if anybody manages to get into the house. Also there in case the T in the sewer is killed by rushing CTs The idea is not to spread yourself out too thin, yet have everything covered. If the player on the roof is dead, then you know that CTs are in the front yard, so the defenders inside the house should be more alart (along with the players in the backyard area.). If the player in the sewer is killed (which he shouldnt be, unless he tried to engage the CTs, which is stooopid). Then you know CTs are coming from the sewer. Everybody should have a cover spot, and everybody should know where to go in case heavy action comes out.

03-20-2005, 04:07 PM	#10 (permalink)
><JohnGalt>< Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 433	Re: Disappointment also note that when i go into the sweres I only stay a min or so before I relocated my lazy ass __________________

03-20-2005, 05:54 PM	#11 (permalink)
asch Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Mill, SC Age: 33 Posts: 9,763	Re: Disappointment IMO, all these are different tactics & strategies. Each has their place. You can't always fault players for going with a strategy they feel is best. Now on to the hard part of intent. If the intent of the player is not to fullfil their objective, but rather ambush or frag, then I have a problem with it.

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