Root

Wow. Yeah that definitely didn't come across the way you intended. What does it mean to be "down" with an ice cube? I generally put ice cubes in my drink. I find putting them down anywhere else usually involves a subsequent mop-up operation. I'm not even going to ask what OPP is.

I think that a large number of CS players here have their own idea of what PCS should be, and they expect the admins and Apophis to adjust PCS to fit this (wrong) definition.

Root

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SloppyJoe

Yeah, thats the problem of the "curtain". You see the same phenomenon when you buy a game (like Tribes 2, WoW, etc.) that is problematic. You go to their forums and you see people HUNGRY to know what is going on only to either never even get a response or get a general response "We're working on it. It will be fixed when it is fixed." I suppose that that is kind of rude. But I can understand the situation. They are working on the problem at their pace and forum posters are not part of the "inner circle" although sometimes someone will post something helpful. People that buy games are invested into that game, in at least for the $50 or whatever, but more in the interest of the game. When something isn't going right, they want to be a part of it. Just like members here.

The biggest mistake I have seen from dev teams on their forums is: That even though they put aside their public with a "We're working on it" announcement, they don't do it often enough to give their public the idea that they care. It's one thing to get the feeling that you may be getting brushed aside and want to help, but when it appears that the powers that be are sitting behind a curtain, and results are slow in coming, it can look as if they don't care and nothing is going on but some feet being put up on the desk with a lot of snickering going on.

Mateo

Man, I guess that doesn't translate well to english.

To "be down" means you are for, grouped with, or otherwise identified with a particular idea, group, or person.

"I'm down with Ice Cube" means="Yeah man, I dig (rapper) Ice Cube."

Has absolutely nothing to do with drinks.

Now, who wants to explain OPP (yeah, you know me!) for our english brethern?

SloppyJoe

Ice Cube is a very famous rap star (since his first appearance with a group called NWA in the latter 80's to his near 2 decade solo career) as well some a decent actor (Boyz n tha hood, Anachonda, and quite a few more). OPP was a song by .... can't remember the group, it was a one hit wonder. Being down with OPP (loosely interpreted as other people's property) means you don't mind getting "busy" with another man's woman, even if it involves a friend. Don't ask me to explain what getting "busy" is.

Root

Do you have any suggestions with regard to this?

Root

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SloppyJoe

Yeah, when there is a problem or change or change coming, just keep the public informed. Even if it's nothing new. At least around every 3 days.

Root

Wouldn't saying "nothing new" be pretty much the same thing as saying nothing at all?

Root

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SloppyJoe

The idea is to demonstrate that you give a **** and are working on it. You may be putting 24 hours a day into it, but behind the curtain now one knows. Quite the contrary, most people assume the worst, that the people behind the curtain are doing nothing and even go so far as to think they are getting laughed at or mocked to some degree. Even a "nothing new" message is sending a whole different message. Nothing new to report, we care about the problem and we are working on it, but we want you to know we care about -you-, we understand what it must be like on your side of the curtain, and we'll keep you informed even if it's "nothing new".

Don't look at the content of the message being of utmost importance, but rather, the message itself. Ah so!

Root

Sloppy - I'm not convinced you're right about this. I will concede that you have a well thought out arguement, and I've sent you a PM if you'd be so kind as to reply...

Root

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SloppyJoe

OK. I'll try to break it down but I'm not a well versed psychologist, just some philosophy.

Consider the perspective of the "player" in juxtaposition to the "admin". It's a borderline antogonistic relationship from the get go.

I know, I know... How could that possibly be????

To the player, the admins have some sort of "power" over them. This pretty much always results in a default sentiment of suspicion from the player and therefore sets up an antagonist relationship from the get go. In most situations that arise from the application of power, its for the good and completely justified (often times without even warranting explanation) from the admins perspective. But regardless, at the surface, to a player, a kick is a kick, a slay is a slay, and a bitch out is a bitch out. In the players perspective it's still like getting spanked or sent to the corner chair and it still sucks to some degree or another. Hmm, think of it like a parent to a child.

Sometimes the parent is too busy to explain things, and just uses power for a quick correction. This leaves the child with a minimal degree of understanding and a high degree of resentment, child - "I don't understand, this sucks, and I hate you mom!" and that "bordlerline" antagonistic relationship to start with will soon begin leaning towards real resentment and antagonism.

Sometimes an explanation comes with the use of power, resulting in a higher degree of understanding for its usage and lowers the degree of resentment (still some because a punishment still sucks), for example, child - "I kinda understand why you did that, but this still sucks".

The best case scenario is the use of power + explanation + 'sentiment'. For example, parent - "I'm sending you to the corner chair, here's why, AND I am doing it because I love you not because I hate you and I hope you understand and I'm here for you", child - "I kinda understand why you did that, but this still sucks, but it doesn't suck so bad because I know that you care"

For the basic functions to work as intended, using power over another is required, the rest are often considered "optional". Explanations are tedious and time consuming, especially when having work (and play) to do. But they are needed for growth and to break down the antogonism and turn the relationship into one of understanding and rapport. Often times explanations get put on the wayside, and the best way to deal with that in the moment is to use sentiment. "I'm doing such and such to you (that you might not like or you might be suspicious of), I don't have time to explain now. However, I do care, and I will explain when I can." This helps to break down antogonism with sentiments that you care (oooh hugs hugs!) and that you can sympathise with the person that you are exerting power over. Even if it means pointing that person to a SOP or something minimalistic later.

I know this isn't specific to the issue of admins announcing what goes behind the curtain to the players, but it does relate. Just be aware of the general suspicious, if not antogonistic, relationship an admin with power exerts over players.

Keeping them informed is always good when possible, and when that falls short, a "hey, still working on it and wanted you all to know so you don't think I'm ignoring you because I care and know what it must feel like to be on your side of the fence, wondering" message is always good to not only alleviate the tensions in that relationship, but help form stronger rapport.

The "dry" duty specs of an admin are, you know, setting up policies, enforcing them, making sure the servers are running, finding suckers to delegate work to, etc. What they never tell you about are these diplomatic and psychological duties. And that's what makes the big difference between good admins that keep things running and great admins that make it a home to come home to.


PS, sorry about not PMing you sooner. I decided to make a real Sunday brunch. Venison sausage, hasbrowns, eggs over easy, toast and jam, and fresh orange juice. Could have used some cantalope.. ah well.

Root

And that's where it all goes wrong. People shouldn't have that attitude. They should read the SOP's, read the forums, and then decide that

a) PCS is for them, and stay
or
b) PCS is not for them, and leave

There are players who've never needed to be warned, slayed kicked or banned. I suspect those players don't care about admins having power. They come here, they play PCS and if there's an issue they contact an admin and are helped as much as possible.

We also have the reverse of what you mentioned. We have players who demand to know why other players are slayed, kicked or banned. They are under the impression that they have absolute power over the admins, and that the admins answer to them.

I fully agree with your statement about power. I think it applies in the majority of cases in our CS community. I think it shows a lack of maturity to think (or post) in those terms. I cringe when I see a post referring to me as the god of PCS. I'm just another PCS player. Granted I'm superior to 9v, but that's because he's from up north. Admins enjoy the burden of responsibility, not power.

Root

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SloppyJoe

In a perfect scenario, I agree with you. People should do their part. They should seek information and make a strong and fully informed decision. But in the real scenario, it's not so black or white. Some people read what "they have to" (to get a server password for example), or learn what "they have to" through warnings or punishments in game in order to get by. Some people see one aspect of PCS and are attracted to it without knowing other ideas of PCS. This is where the problems and further work come from.

Very nice. Wish they were all like that? But realistically, not everyone "spawns" on the same page lol. What to do about the ones that fall short? Cut them off and ban them? Or work with them to help them fit the mold?

Two alternatives, either they have good reason to believe that an admin is abusing power and are asking in order to build a case for later presentation.... or these players obviously have had bad experiences with power in the past and were never explained or given sentiment when power was used on them. Now they see any source of power, even when doled out to others, to be obsolutely questioned as a defense mechanism from possibly feeling the wrath of that power upon themselves in the future. They also have the impression that admins are under their power for the same reason. These people are the ones that are very difficult to work with and may not be (I don't want to say "worth") within reason for admins to deal with. Perhaps a referral to a counselor may be in order.

Well, what you have to understand is not everyone is "mature". Even those that are "mature" lack some aspect of "maturity" (I'll even put myself in that catagory, just take a look at my name). And not everyone even bothers to think about the implications of power imbalances and the effects they have on relationships, communication, and growth, especially in a "game" *shock*.

Also realize, that a lot of computer gamers are not mature and some are downright lazy. This is due to the fact that real "mature" people don't play these *silly* games, and people that aren't lazy have "better" things to do. You get the luxury of working with the cream of the crop

You may just be "another PCS player" but you are another PCS player, with power. And that has, as I've pointed out, more of a reach than you would think, regardless if you want it to, or not. For anyone to call you a god, well, their either poking fun at you, don't understand why the balance of power is the way it is, or simply wish god is a bloke.

TheBigC

Agreed, that is me. So that being now known, make me some dinner and none of that crappy English food! LOL

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The Meek shall inherit the earth..... after we're through with it!

The Wounded Warrior Project, help support my friends

Mateo

It's not a matter of perfection Sloppy. Most of us would agree that even the admin team does not know every aspect of PCS....frankly, the best PCS players aren't even here anymore.

That said, regardless of how someone learns, it is essential that they try. One thing they need to do is come here, read, get involved, etc. Most players coming in to Server 1 the first time do not do that, and as such they suck up an inordinate amount of admin and play time as they try to learn by doing.

Mostly they argue every little point with admins. Rather than learning, they want to skate by with as little effort as possible. The thing is, PCS requires "un-learning" many of the things that players have been doing for years in CS, and that takes effort.

We're not a daycare. Learn PCS, or go somewhere else. Frankly, the games here are better overall since we started cutting off "bad customers", players that showed no indication that they were willing, or able, to fit in with our style of play, but insisted on taking a server slot nonetheless.

I'm all for educating players, but only those players willing to learn. Everyone else is free to get stuffed.

Admin abuse is a myth.

I'm an admin. I see the logs. I know the other admins very well. One look at the logs shows me 100 other possible bans that we never even execute. We have strict rules in place on what we can and cannot do, how we do it, and the procedures on informing admins and players of those actions. If we really wanted to be abusive, we could, right now, go through the logs, and enforce every infraction, whether we saw it or not.

You have no idea the amount of crap we put up with from players that have no clue what they are doing, don't want to learn, and want to act as if Tactical Gamer is their personal frag-monkey server. They don't belong here.

Those players yell and scream about admin abuse, simply because they cannot be bothered to learn.

There are some players that have standing, that I may give benefit of the doubt to, but other than that, I really don't care what players think. The banhammer has to fall equally.

If anything, I feel that TG tag wearing players bear the burden of heightened scrutiny, since I assume that they have read the SOPs and Tactics, and support our type of play.

I'm not a counselor, I'm not your mom, I won't stand by and let a player ruin our game because they have issues to work out.


I don't think that is always the case. We have alot of mature, learned, and thougthful people here, even if we are all immature enough to still play these games.

I think also that the convential view of gamers is shifting as demographics shift.

Does that mean that we should make allowances for player's immaturity.....no, I don't think so. If anything, we need to be more stringent. There are 11000 CS:S servers that perpetuate the norm of immature, fragmonkey gameplay. Tactical Gamer is an oasis from that, one which we should protect at all costs.

Anyone that is not mature enough to understand that should not be here.

Actually Root is more like Moses. PCS is, and Root is it's prophet. The rest of the admins just get to borrow the banhammer.

Stealth Elite

Hey, this is .143 Beth's younger brother, and I hope to play CS:S with you people soon. I'll see you later, and try my best to play the objectives right.

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