Wyzcrak

What? There aren't male strippers in CSS...

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Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

StrikeFear

What about this scenario:

I'm the last T on my team. For whatever legitimate reason, the CT has acquired the last hostage, and I can see them a good distance away, running down a long hall, about to turn a corner to the rescue zone.
I happen to have an SG-552, but can't get a clear shot on the CT because of the hostage.
My choice is simple:
1) Drop the hostage and force the CT to come after me to win the objective. I'll then have a chance to win.
2) Refuse to kill the hostage - but let the CT rescue and win the objective.

Is there an official stance on that?

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Mateo

Yep. Wait for the shot.

I'm sure that you appreciate that a blown strategy or teamwork does not mean we fall back on the secondary victory condition (elimination of the other team), especially if you need to eliminate the objective to do fulfill that condition.

Wyzcrak

Don't intentionally shoot hostages for any reason.

It's natural to ask questions, I guess, but that's an answer that simply answers many of them.

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Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

Apophis

Indeed.. You'll end up getting auto-kicked and eventually banned for shooting hostages.

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StrikeFear

Sure, the answer makes sense.
I hope you'll agree, however, that the question begs answering, since there is a conflict between these two imagined terrorist objectives:

1) Keep the hostages alive as a bargaining tool to obtain your demands
2) Prevent rescue of said hostages

Attemtpting to transplant the CS scenario into real life leaves you with these suppositions:
1) T's have demands and are using the H's as leverage
2) CT's in-game represent the sum total of opposing force currently on the scene (But more will come later).

There follow some conclusions:
1) Should the T's be able to eliminate the CTs, they can escape the current siege they are under by the CTs.
2) If they are able to both achieve (1) and preserve at least one hostage, they will also obtain their demands.

That leaves the following victory conditions:
1) Full CT victory: Eliminate all Ts or rescue all Hs *
2) Partial CT victory: Eliminate Ts, rescue some Hs
3) Minimal T victory: Eliminate CTs, all Hs dead
4) Partial T victory: Eliminate CTs, some Hs dead
5) Full T victory: Eliminate CTs, no Hs dead

So - back to the point:
Under condition 3, the Ts have escaped to the underground, but did not achieve their objectives. I'm not arguing the point, but the reason I asked the question is that this seems a preferable outcome than "Partial CT victory".

* I think it's assumed that if you rescue all Hs, you then take off and nuke the site from orbit - just to be sure - so all the Ts end up dying anyway.

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Wyzcrak

You guys may talk this out to your hearts' contents, but it is only to be talk if it involves shooting hostages, for any reason. I won't be spending time in that conversation (as interesting as it may -- or may not -- be).

But when it comes to action: Don't shoot hostages for any reason.

I'm sure you understand, Strike, but some things deserve repeating regardless.

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Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

Vulcan

A couple points your missing here.

Part of playing the objective means you don't let the CT's get hostages. If they get the hostages then your team has failed that objective. Now since you failed the first objective, You have to cut your losses but that doesn't mean you sacrifice hostages puprosely to do that. While it might seem realistic for a militant extremist to do that, it doesn't really fall under sane things to do and we like to play sanely. You can however pursue to win the round by taking out the remaining CT, If you take a shot or two and the hostage dies you'll be taken care of by the admin system. The point of this is not get into that position in the first place and if it does happen accept your lose without killing hostages.

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GhostintheShell

If you are in a position where you have to chase down the last CT with the hossies in tow you have already lost IMO regardless if you shoot him in the back or not.

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Root

Indeed. Don't put the hostage at risk if this happens, and then evaluate *why* you failed so that you can address it next round.

Very unlikely that this will happen. As soon as the last hostage leaves the game, either through dying or being rescued, the CT's win.

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Phantom

Oh and you left off one victory scenario

6) Complete and utter CT victory: Rescue all hostages, and kill all Ts

It has been done, it takes serious teamwork and communication but it is possible.

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DON.MAC

I would say that it seems somewhat contradictory to strive for realism but to not allow the realistic conclusion to scenario that was described. You wouldn't think that a terrorist who really wanted a single counter terrorist dead, with only an escaped hostage in his way would lower his gun and say "Well played" or "Wow, did I ever screw up that one" as the case may be. You wouldn't think he would be too worried about facing the consequences of killing a hostage after taking the hostages in the first place and then killing CTs. I also find it hard to follow arguments that link terrorists and sanity Of course, you also wouldn't think that the terrorists would let the CTs walk into their house, take the hostages, and leave.

The game itself isn't very realistic though.

Unless the conditions have changed during the past year, the CTs can only win via hostages if they rescue at least two out of four.

StrikeFear

Wyz - yeah, this is just a conversation. Nothing more. It's not intended as any challenge to a rule or even a discussion of the rule. Just a discussion of a scenario.

There are certainly a few things about the rules we have that I don't FULLY agree with - that's common (like the UCB rule in BF2). And it's also no big deal. The community and fair play is the most important thing to any game.

Don.Mac gets what I'm saying.

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Addict

Huh. While I of COURSE would never shoot a hostage on purpose, and would not shoot with NO regard for the hostage's health, and will TRY my BEST to avoid hitting them, I *would* consider taking "riskier" shots in the situation of the last hostage following the last CT, not just fold up shop. I guess it's just what level of risk is considered acceptable?

Shooting through the Hostage's legs, not acceptable, too high a probability of hitting him.

Shooting around the Hostage as he wildly weaves and jumps as the AI is wont to do, THAT I would try, if I have ANY reasonable hope of not hitting the hostage.

VERY occasionally(heck, this SITUATION is very occasional by all rights), I might accidently get the darned Hostage(I blame the hostage for jumping into my line of fire).

Side note : I always found it quite humorous to see TG'ers get kicked for accidently killing 2 hostages(it happens so suddenly!) ; humorous because I KNOW that it was a mistake or suicidal AI movement, not the intention of the player.

Anyway, is taking riskier shots pushing it too far? I think not, as long as you minimize the risk, but I could be wrong.

Uchiha Obito

wheeeee! Lookit all of the names that aren't on anymore, or near as often as they should be! I know I saw Fox9, Keith, and Yer Mom in there.

Anyways, I'm not going to debate the whole issue considering that it's almost a year old now, I just wanted to clarify something:

If even one hostage is rescued and the others die, CTs win. If they all die before any are rescued it's the same as dropping the bomb out of bounds, the round becomes a hunting match.

Playing on servers with zombie mod puts you in some odd scenarios, so no I wouldn't kill the hosties on the TG servers lol.