Terrorist using hostages as shields

K2_the_Turtle · 02-11-2005, 07:42 PM

Heard from Root this wasn't allowed.

Why not? Seems both realistic and tactical...and it's not a huge advantage given that T's can't move the hostages anymore.

K2_the_Turtle · 02-11-2005, 07:46 PM

FYI...This is in fact allowed. I just found it in the FAQ.

Quote:

What are your guidelines for hostage treatment?
It's important for everyone to realize that hostages are an important objective in this game. Terrorists are supposed to protect the hostages. After all, isn't that what is keeping the ct's from just blowing them up? CT's are to rescue them. Therefore, terrorist "hostage wounding" is forbidden. Hostages are NOT to be thought of as nothing more than shields to hide behind. For this reason, it is against the spirit of PCS to arrange the hostages as a wall, or "meat donut" for you to hide behind. It's inevitable that a terrorist will end up in a situation where the only cover he has from a CT is a hostage, and that's OK, just don't arrange the hostages specifically as a shield...

K2_the_Turtle · 02-11-2005, 07:52 PM

Although this portion of the FAQ has NOT been updated since the release of CS Source.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-11-2005, 07:53 PM

No portion of the FAQ has been.

Quote:

It's inevitable that a terrorist will end up in a situation where the only cover he has from a CT is a hostage, and that's OK, just don't arrange the hostages specifically as a shield...

A classic example of players (and admins) being at the mercy of admin discretion due to a lack of a hard rule?

1. You may not allow idle hostages to enter the crossfire between you and the opposition.

2. You may allow idle hostages to enter the crossfire between you and the opposition.

3. You may not allow idle hostages to enter the crossfire between you and the opposition unless you have a good reason.

We don't have one or two. We have three. So, we're left to trust the admin's judgement in that situation.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-11-2005, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2_the_Turtle

Why not? Seems both realistic and tactical...

This sounds like you intend to PLAN on using hostages as shields, no matter how far in advance that plan precedes the act.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAQ

Terrorists are supposed to protect the hostages... Therefore, terrorist "hostage wounding" is forbidden... It's inevitable that a terrorist will end up in a situation where the only cover he has from a CT is a hostage, and that's OK, just don't arrange the hostages specifically as a shield...

"Inevitable" is used here as an antonym to "planned", I think. The FAQ seems to use the word "arrange" to mean an act that involves moving both yourself and the hostage. This is "tactical," the word you used above. Is it "tactical" in the same sense as your use of the word above?

Perhaps the question is as follows: are you "arranging" a hostage "as a shield" by intentionally positioning yourself opposite the hostage from the opposition's fire?

If so, my interpretation of the FAQ's guidelines (not rules) prohibits that move.

FOX9 · 02-11-2005, 09:05 PM

Ya know, I wanted to say something on this thread before but I figured this was kinda common sense too, IMO. CTs using hossies as shields... Simply out of the question. IRL CT's job is to secure and protect the hostages. Hossies health is numero uno in CTs book. Terrorists on the other hand should be considered more leanantly. In real world situations, Ts do use hossies as just that.... hostages. Hostages to get what they want out of police/fbi/etc OR to not allow themselves to be shot at due to CTs(IRL) not wanting to injure the hostage(s). The latter of the two is specific straight to CS. Hossies should not be purposely arranged in a manner to allow prime shooting abilities and be defended at the same time. If there is one or two lone Ts left on the map, CTs are still pretty full team. Then a little playing with this won't hurt. But if everyone does do it, especially from the start of a round. It could be devastating. I guess this really all comes back to Wyz saying how its a call-by-call situation.

IceCold · 02-11-2005, 09:35 PM

This part of the FAQ does need to be updated. When the FAQ was written, CounterStrike allowed terrorists to move the hostages anywhere they wanted. People were arranging the hostages in a circle around them (meat donut) so that they were protected from enemy fire, while they were able to shoot through the small gaps between the hostages. I think that since the hostages can no longer be moved by the terrorists, this is no longer an issue. The hostages can't be abused in such a manner... Using the stationary hostages as shields shouldn't be a problem as they're rarely arranged in such a tactically superior position (like a meat donut...). If you're the last T alive, it may very well be the best way to win the round... If you still have teammates, then you probably won't be cowering behind the hostages, you'll probably be supporting your team in a more active role.

Yer Mom · 02-12-2005, 02:12 AM

Tactical seems a bit vague I believe in all instances that it has been used on the server and in the rules... we need a better word.

I've seen many complaints by new-comers that they are "tactically" killing all the CT's before they can enter the building to get the hosties.

This would be concidered hunting.

As far as the hosties go, I've seen MANY people hide behind hosties in a camping/defensive manner.

This normally would pose no problem to me as I would blow through the hosties to killed the terrorist because he poses more of a threat to me than the hosties do, and if I die, the hosties aren't gonna get rescued either way.

Although, I have noticed that after a few hosty kills, you are kicked from the server.

That would be my only arguement towards the T's using hosties as a shield. If I'm being shot at by someone behind a hostie in real life, and my life is threatened, I, personally, would say to hell with the hostie and save my own life.

This may seem a bit... crude... but the way I see it is if I don't kill that terrorist and hopefully not both of the hosties, then I'm going to die myself and the hosties are doomed forever.

In a real life situation, the hosties would play an important role in the defense of a terrorist, but you have to concider what would happen if the terrorists were going to escape by using a hostage.

I do believe, although I am not entirely sure, that it is stated somewhere in the guidelines and rulebooks of the cops/FBI/cia/whoeverelsefightsterroristsIRL that the terrorists not escaping is the most important objective and is ranked HIGH above the hosties dying.

If I was a cop IRL and I had to stop a terrorist behind a hostie, I'd shoot the hostie in the leg, cap the terrorist, and then get the hostie to an ambulance. Sure, I may be sued, but I still saved the idiots life.

It's a touchy subject, and untill I can shoot a hostie in the leg and make him fall down, I'm going to blow thru the hostie, and kill the terrorist. But, then agian, like I said before, if this is going to be aloud, I think we should change the number of hosty kills it takes before you are kicked. Because, sooner or later, you're going to get a guy that's ALWAYS behind the hosties.

-Mom

**CingularDuality** · 02-12-2005, 02:18 AM

Man, I hope my mom never becomes a cop or CT in real life...

But, to stay on topic, if someone is always camping behind the hostages, then they're not supporting their team, therefore not playing PCS, therefore will eventually be weeded from our servers anyway...

People keep bringing up these hypotheticals, which is fine, but I don't see it becoming a problem... If it does become a problem, we'll deal with the person causing the problem.

**TheFeniX** · 02-12-2005, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yer Mom

I've seen many complaints by new-comers that they are "tactically" killing all the CT's before they can enter the building to get the hosties.

If a player can't grasp basic real-world strategy: I don't think we'd really want them here anyways. They're just making excuses to try on play on this server the way they feel the game should be played.

I've always wondered why they even bother arguing considering the countless servers filled with intelligence-free gamers (I mean, look at the Quake series).

Gooshy · 02-12-2005, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yer Mom

I do believe, although I am not entirely sure, that it is stated somewhere in the guidelines and rulebooks of the cops/FBI/cia/whoeverelsefightsterroristsIRL that the terrorists not escaping is the most important objective and is ranked HIGH above the hosties dying.

Hhhhmmmm....nope. You're talking about the "invisible hostage" rule of deadly force which is only used in extremely specific situations and, as far as I know, isn't used by law enforcement or the FBI. CIA, haven't a clue. "Whoeverelse", probably mostly not, too. And none of the hostage situations in CS meet the criteria, anyway.

If you _did_ make a map that worked like this, the hosties would just be window dressing.

FOX9 · 02-12-2005, 02:42 PM

Yeah Goosh is right. Only under very specific extraneous circumstances is a Ts escape paramount over an innocent (hossies) life. In addition, these situations are handled by only the most experienced of tactician. Nextly, lol CIA DO have a clue. They are about the only agency that has an actual name and goes on the record books, that DO have a clue.

Gooshy · 02-12-2005, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOX9

Yeah Goosh is right. Only under very specific extraneous circumstances is a Ts escape paramount over an innocent (hossies) life. In addition, these situations are handled by only the most experienced of tactician. Nextly, lol CIA DO have a clue. They are about the only agency that has an actual name and goes on the record books, that DO have a clue.

Hehehe...I meant that _I_ didn't have a clue as to anything about CIA in this regard.

(Now I'm going to be _really_ obscure and bring up "Zulu Five Oscar"...just for fun.)

Yer Mom · 02-12-2005, 07:18 PM

I find myself a stopping point. I didn't post all that to say very much. I simply wanted to state that if we are going to allow T's to hide behind hosties when alone, or when not, then we should change the number of hosties killed before the kick.

It happened to me again today, only I was a T and the CT was behind the hosties. I was kicked before I killed the CT, which was the only other person alive, which lost us the round.

I don't see much of a point in being kicked for killing less than 4 hosties... if you are able to kill 4 hosties in one round, then you are being a jackass and killing them at the start.

-Mom

**CingularDuality** · 02-12-2005, 07:22 PM

Well, look, CTs are the good guys. They don't shoot hostages. Their whole purpose in life is to protect these hostages from the likes of these terrorist dirtbags.

Terrorists are the bad guys. They don't shoot the hostages because they need them for bargaining purposes (that's why they took 'em in the first place). But, when it comes down to life or death, they're going to hide behind the hostages because they know the CTs are not going to intentionally hurt the hostages.

Simply blasting your way through the hostages is not acceptable. You must attempt to angle for a shot that does not include the hostage being between you and your target.

02-11-2005, 07:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
K2_the_Turtle Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 275	Terrorist using hostages as shields Heard from Root this wasn't allowed. Why not? Seems both realistic and tactical...and it's not a huge advantage given that T's can't move the hostages anymore.

02-11-2005, 07:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
K2_the_Turtle Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 275	Re: Terrorist using hostages as shields Although this portion of the FAQ has NOT been updated since the release of CS Source.

02-11-2005, 09:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
FOX9 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Florida Age: 23 Posts: 112	Re: Terrorist using hostages as shields Ya know, I wanted to say something on this thread before but I figured this was kinda common sense too, IMO. CTs using hossies as shields... Simply out of the question. IRL CT's job is to secure and protect the hostages. Hossies health is numero uno in CTs book. Terrorists on the other hand should be considered more leanantly. In real world situations, Ts do use hossies as just that.... hostages. Hostages to get what they want out of police/fbi/etc OR to not allow themselves to be shot at due to CTs(IRL) not wanting to injure the hostage(s). The latter of the two is specific straight to CS. Hossies should not be purposely arranged in a manner to allow prime shooting abilities and be defended at the same time. If there is one or two lone Ts left on the map, CTs are still pretty full team. Then a little playing with this won't hurt. But if everyone does do it, especially from the start of a round. It could be devastating. I guess this really all comes back to Wyz saying how its a call-by-call situation. __________________ We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dream. Wandering by lone sea breakers, and sitting by desolate streams. World losers and world forsakers, for whom the pale moon gleams. Yet we are movers and the shakers of the world forever it seems.

02-11-2005, 09:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
IceCold Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 716	Re: Terrorist using hostages as shields This part of the FAQ does need to be updated. When the FAQ was written, CounterStrike allowed terrorists to move the hostages anywhere they wanted. People were arranging the hostages in a circle around them (meat donut) so that they were protected from enemy fire, while they were able to shoot through the small gaps between the hostages. I think that since the hostages can no longer be moved by the terrorists, this is no longer an issue. The hostages can't be abused in such a manner... Using the stationary hostages as shields shouldn't be a problem as they're rarely arranged in such a tactically superior position (like a meat donut...). If you're the last T alive, it may very well be the best way to win the round... If you still have teammates, then you probably won't be cowering behind the hostages, you'll probably be supporting your team in a more active role.

02-12-2005, 02:12 AM	#8 (permalink)
Yer Mom Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: TN Age: 22 Posts: 789	Re: Terrorist using hostages as shields Tactical seems a bit vague I believe in all instances that it has been used on the server and in the rules... we need a better word. I've seen many complaints by new-comers that they are "tactically" killing all the CT's before they can enter the building to get the hosties. This would be concidered hunting. As far as the hosties go, I've seen MANY people hide behind hosties in a camping/defensive manner. This normally would pose no problem to me as I would blow through the hosties to killed the terrorist because he poses more of a threat to me than the hosties do, and if I die, the hosties aren't gonna get rescued either way. Although, I have noticed that after a few hosty kills, you are kicked from the server. That would be my only arguement towards the T's using hosties as a shield. If I'm being shot at by someone behind a hostie in real life, and my life is threatened, I, personally, would say to hell with the hostie and save my own life. This may seem a bit... crude... but the way I see it is if I don't kill that terrorist and hopefully not both of the hosties, then I'm going to die myself and the hosties are doomed forever. In a real life situation, the hosties would play an important role in the defense of a terrorist, but you have to concider what would happen if the terrorists were going to escape by using a hostage. I do believe, although I am not entirely sure, that it is stated somewhere in the guidelines and rulebooks of the cops/FBI/cia/whoeverelsefightsterroristsIRL that the terrorists not escaping is the most important objective and is ranked HIGH above the hosties dying. If I was a cop IRL and I had to stop a terrorist behind a hostie, I'd shoot the hostie in the leg, cap the terrorist, and then get the hostie to an ambulance. Sure, I may be sued, but I still saved the idiots life. It's a touchy subject, and untill I can shoot a hostie in the leg and make him fall down, I'm going to blow thru the hostie, and kill the terrorist. But, then agian, like I said before, if this is going to be aloud, I think we should change the number of hosty kills it takes before you are kicked. Because, sooner or later, you're going to get a guy that's ALWAYS behind the hosties. -Mom __________________ Yer Mom /O> To all but me is the look given but never received. My heart sinks faster and faster every time I look into them, yet I do not understand their controling power on my soul. - W11114m W45h1n670n

02-12-2005, 02:18 AM	#9 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 17,065	Re: Terrorist using hostages as shields Man, I hope my mom never becomes a cop or CT in real life... But, to stay on topic, if someone is always camping behind the hostages, then they're not supporting their team, therefore not playing PCS, therefore will eventually be weeded from our servers anyway... People keep bringing up these hypotheticals, which is fine, but I don't see it becoming a problem... If it does become a problem, we'll deal with the person causing the problem. __________________ Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

02-12-2005, 02:42 PM	#12 (permalink)
FOX9 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Florida Age: 23 Posts: 112	Re: Terrorist using hostages as shields Yeah Goosh is right. Only under very specific extraneous circumstances is a Ts escape paramount over an innocent (hossies) life. In addition, these situations are handled by only the most experienced of tactician. Nextly, lol CIA DO have a clue. They are about the only agency that has an actual name and goes on the record books, that DO have a clue. __________________ We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dream. Wandering by lone sea breakers, and sitting by desolate streams. World losers and world forsakers, for whom the pale moon gleams. Yet we are movers and the shakers of the world forever it seems.

02-12-2005, 07:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
Yer Mom Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: TN Age: 22 Posts: 789	Re: Terrorist using hostages as shields I find myself a stopping point. I didn't post all that to say very much. I simply wanted to state that if we are going to allow T's to hide behind hosties when alone, or when not, then we should change the number of hosties killed before the kick. It happened to me again today, only I was a T and the CT was behind the hosties. I was kicked before I killed the CT, which was the only other person alive, which lost us the round. I don't see much of a point in being kicked for killing less than 4 hosties... if you are able to kill 4 hosties in one round, then you are being a jackass and killing them at the start. -Mom __________________ Yer Mom /O> To all but me is the look given but never received. My heart sinks faster and faster every time I look into them, yet I do not understand their controling power on my soul. - W11114m W45h1n670n

02-12-2005, 07:22 PM	#15 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 17,065	Re: Terrorist using hostages as shields Well, look, CTs are the good guys. They don't shoot hostages. Their whole purpose in life is to protect these hostages from the likes of these terrorist dirtbags. Terrorists are the bad guys. They don't shoot the hostages because they need them for bargaining purposes (that's why they took 'em in the first place). But, when it comes down to life or death, they're going to hide behind the hostages because they know the CTs are not going to intentionally hurt the hostages. Simply blasting your way through the hostages is not acceptable. You must attempt to angle for a shot that does not include the hostage being between you and your target. __________________ Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

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