CS_Office - Page 2

IceCold · 02-15-2005, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

If the furniture can be moved one way, can't it be moved in the other direction, too?

Not if you already used your frag grenade and are (I know this is a stretch, but it's a hypothetical...) completely out of ammo... You can't move filing cabinets with your character.

**Pokerface** · 02-15-2005, 01:21 AM

I would concur that an ammoless situation is a stretch; enough of one, I'd say, not to disallow this tactic.

**CingularDuality** · 02-15-2005, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

I would concur that an ammoless situation is a stretch; enough of one, I'd say, not to disallow this tactic.

I'm not even sure if you can shoot a filing cabinet out of the way like you can a barrel...

Regardless, I think this tactic is cheezy and should be discouraged, if not banned. It's taking advantage of a glitch in the game code (hostages not jumping over them) and is a poor exhibit of sportsmanship, IMO. If it just forced CTs to make noise while jumping over them, I'd be fine with it, but when it becomes impossible (or even just more difficult) to rescue hostages, it encourages DM play.

DON.MAC · 02-15-2005, 05:13 AM

Chairs are easily moved. Filing cabinets, however, can be tricky to move sometimes. If you have one on top of another shooting it will cause it to move towards you. Never the less, it is possible to blast them out of the way. Even if it was impossible to move filing cabinets, it is impossible to block all hostage rescue routes with filing cabinets. When Tempus says the point is moot he is telling the truth. Hostages can push chairs and filing cabinets aside and walk through barricades. If you can get into the room then you should have no problem getting out. If there is a barricade that a hostage cannot get through then I have not seen it. If such a thing is possible to create then it would still be very simple to knock it down.

The Counter Terrorist team has many options when entering a room. Smoke, flash, and HE grenades, and the different entrances allowing for simultaneous entry are very powerful tools. In all of the games I've played on office, the barricades were simply a tool to slow down CT entry and to give away their position. The idea of using barricades to block hostages in a room is ridiculous.

I don't think this tactic is "cheesy" or "cheap" at all. It takes more effort for the Terrorists to set them as it takes the CTs to unset them. It is about as cheap and as cheesy as a flash grenade. It is realistic and beatable. Banning or restricting such actions will only remove an interesting element from the game and further limit the options available to the defensive team for the benefit of an unrealistic and unlikely scenario.

Also, how does this promote "Death Matching" anyway? If it was possible to make the hostages unable to be rescued then I would understand, but it isn't. It makes it more difficult, which is exactly what an objective oriented defensive team should aim to do.

I am obviously in favor of not making any rules regarding this tactic. I think there is much to lose and little to gain by doing so.

**CingularDuality** · 02-15-2005, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DON.MAC

When Tempus says the point is moot he is telling the truth. Hostages can push chairs and filing cabinets aside and walk through barricades. If you can get into the room then you should have no problem getting out. If there is a barricade that a hostage cannot get through then I have not seen it. If such a thing is possible to create then it would still be very simple to knock it down.

Yep... I played around on Office for a bit tonight and you're right, hostages just knock those filing cabinets right out of the way most of the time. And then other times, they just stand there and do nothing. Buggy AI. You'd think they would've fixed this by now, but the engine just doesn't support anything like that...

At any rate, I'll agree that moving filing cabinets usually don't affect the ability to rescue hostages, so this whole argument is silly. Sorry. I guess the only times I ever payed attention to the filing cabinets is when the hostages got hung up on them...

**Wyzcrak** · 02-15-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DON.MAC

Also, how does this promote "Death Matching" anyway?

Deathmatching and "rushing" are two very overused terms. I find their use often (not always) unjustified and/or premature. They're convenient buzzwords to throw around during frustrated moments.

Yes, they have valid uses in the right context, but their use shouldn't evoke attention unless explained. I look at them like cheating accusations. Convince me he's "rushing" or "deathmatching" or hush... don't just throw the word out there and expect me to take note.

**CingularDuality** · 02-15-2005, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DON.MAC

Also, how does this promote "Death Matching" anyway?

Anything that discourages completion of the objectives, by definition, promotes deathmatch play. Deathmatch being that style of play where you're only concerned with trying to stay alive while killing the enemy.

FOX9 · 02-15-2005, 04:30 PM

...........................guess I'm the only unlucky one who plays myself versus 3 Ts that love to move all the furniture around, and yes IT DOES MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT TO RESCUE. It DOES affect NORMAL GAMEPLAY. This tactic is cheap and shows extremely poor sportsmanship. EVERY SINGLE TIME, I am on the T side telling them NOT to do that, they do, then sometimes I get stuck in the projector room; AND NOT ONCE did I die. It was OVERLY easy to dispose of the CTs, who were no newbs. Some of the things said here are just...... wrong. I dont wanna type out a whole long thing about EVERYONEs response. Not that you any/all of you are wrong. Not at all, but your concept of the hossies "moving" the furniture out of the way is completely unrealistic. This has NEVER happened to me. Like Cing said, it DOES PROMOTE DM. Maybe there should be a rule, maybe not. Unfortunately, thats not up to me...

Sorry if any of this sounds a little rude, it is mos def NOT meant to be, honestly.
I'm just getting so frustrated.

**Pokerface** · 02-15-2005, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Anything that discourages completion of the objectives, by definition, promotes deathmatch play. Deathmatch being that style of play where you're only concerned with trying to stay alive while killing the enemy.

In the worst case scenario in cs_office, can enough things be moved to as to completely prevent a hostage rescue?

What if the T's left one option open? So long as the objective CAN be completed, I don't see a problem.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-15-2005, 04:55 PM

This could be settled with one rule similar to the following:

You may not move furniture or other map entities by any means to any location which places the map in a state which completely eliminates the potential to complete the objective.

IceCold · 02-15-2005, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

This could be settled with one rule similar to the following:

You may not move furniture or other map entities by any means to any location which places the map in a state which completely eliminates the potential to complete the objective.

The problem is that most of the time the hossies just push right through any obstacles, while occasionally they get hung up on them and refuse to move. It's a game bug.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-15-2005, 05:35 PM

That's not a problem. The rule accomodates that.

**Tempus** · 02-15-2005, 05:39 PM

In the months that I've played here, I have not seen this problem one time. Let's address this again when it becomes one.

Buck Fush · 02-15-2005, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

If the furniture can be moved one way, can't it be moved in the other direction, too?

The filing cabinets are moved into that position by throwing a grenade on the other side of them.

Either way, it would be impossible to block both doors leading to either hostage location with filing cabinets, there's always another way out. Therefore this practice cannot make it impossible to rescue the hostages

FOX9 · 02-15-2005, 06:08 PM

In addition, I was bringing this up ONLY because it had happened to me in a TG Server. It had happened before the Server Ops had incorporated HLTV. Also, I brought this up because the Terrorists had "played around with" the furniture so much that it was impossible to get the hostages through. Minor "playing" I soppose is all right.

Yes Wyzcrak, if we implemented that rule it would be better. HOWEVER, it is also an iffy subject when who/what determines if/when it is a factor.

02-15-2005, 01:21 AM	#17 (permalink)
Pokerface Join Date: May 2003 Location: MD, USA Age: 30 Posts: 5,771	Re: CS_Office I would concur that an ammoless situation is a stretch; enough of one, I'd say, not to disallow this tactic. __________________ NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues. Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality. <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

02-15-2005, 05:13 AM	#19 (permalink)
DON.MAC Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 162	Re: CS_Office Chairs are easily moved. Filing cabinets, however, can be tricky to move sometimes. If you have one on top of another shooting it will cause it to move towards you. Never the less, it is possible to blast them out of the way. Even if it was impossible to move filing cabinets, it is impossible to block all hostage rescue routes with filing cabinets. When Tempus says the point is moot he is telling the truth. Hostages can push chairs and filing cabinets aside and walk through barricades. If you can get into the room then you should have no problem getting out. If there is a barricade that a hostage cannot get through then I have not seen it. If such a thing is possible to create then it would still be very simple to knock it down. The Counter Terrorist team has many options when entering a room. Smoke, flash, and HE grenades, and the different entrances allowing for simultaneous entry are very powerful tools. In all of the games I've played on office, the barricades were simply a tool to slow down CT entry and to give away their position. The idea of using barricades to block hostages in a room is ridiculous. I don't think this tactic is "cheesy" or "cheap" at all. It takes more effort for the Terrorists to set them as it takes the CTs to unset them. It is about as cheap and as cheesy as a flash grenade. It is realistic and beatable. Banning or restricting such actions will only remove an interesting element from the game and further limit the options available to the defensive team for the benefit of an unrealistic and unlikely scenario. Also, how does this promote "Death Matching" anyway? If it was possible to make the hostages unable to be rescued then I would understand, but it isn't. It makes it more difficult, which is exactly what an objective oriented defensive team should aim to do. I am obviously in favor of not making any rules regarding this tactic. I think there is much to lose and little to gain by doing so.

02-15-2005, 04:30 PM	#23 (permalink)
FOX9 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Florida Age: 23 Posts: 112	Re: CS_Office ...........................guess I'm the only unlucky one who plays myself versus 3 Ts that love to move all the furniture around, and yes IT DOES MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT TO RESCUE. It DOES affect NORMAL GAMEPLAY. This tactic is cheap and shows extremely poor sportsmanship. EVERY SINGLE TIME, I am on the T side telling them NOT to do that, they do, then sometimes I get stuck in the projector room; AND NOT ONCE did I die. It was OVERLY easy to dispose of the CTs, who were no newbs. Some of the things said here are just...... wrong. I dont wanna type out a whole long thing about EVERYONEs response. Not that you any/all of you are wrong. Not at all, but your concept of the hossies "moving" the furniture out of the way is completely unrealistic. This has NEVER happened to me. Like Cing said, it DOES PROMOTE DM. Maybe there should be a rule, maybe not. Unfortunately, thats not up to me... Sorry if any of this sounds a little rude, it is mos def NOT meant to be, honestly. I'm just getting so frustrated. __________________ We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dream. Wandering by lone sea breakers, and sitting by desolate streams. World losers and world forsakers, for whom the pale moon gleams. Yet we are movers and the shakers of the world forever it seems. Last edited by FOX9; 02-15-2005 at 06:09 PM.

02-15-2005, 04:55 PM	#25 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: CS_Office This could be settled with one rule similar to the following: You may not move furniture or other map entities by any means to any location which places the map in a state which completely eliminates the potential to complete the objective. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

02-15-2005, 05:35 PM	#27 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: CS_Office That's not a problem. The rule accomodates that. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

02-15-2005, 05:39 PM	#28 (permalink)
Tempus Join Date: May 2003 Location: Miami, FL Age: 38 Posts: 8,234	Re: CS_Office In the months that I've played here, I have not seen this problem one time. Let's address this again when it becomes one.

02-15-2005, 06:08 PM	#30 (permalink)
FOX9 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Florida Age: 23 Posts: 112	Re: CS_Office In addition, I was bringing this up ONLY because it had happened to me in a TG Server. It had happened before the Server Ops had incorporated HLTV. Also, I brought this up because the Terrorists had "played around with" the furniture so much that it was impossible to get the hostages through. Minor "playing" I soppose is all right. Yes Wyzcrak, if we implemented that rule it would be better. HOWEVER, it is also an iffy subject when who/what determines if/when it is a factor. __________________ We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dream. Wandering by lone sea breakers, and sitting by desolate streams. World losers and world forsakers, for whom the pale moon gleams. Yet we are movers and the shakers of the world forever it seems.

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