CS_Office

**FOX9** · 02-14-2005, 01:22 PM

Hey guys I tried posting this last night but my cable went out

Anyone else gettin ticked off by the constant furniture and cabinet moving on office?

OK, I know what your gonna say, it IS tactical. It further complicates the CTs objective in numerous ways. I can see if we are in a full game (6v7 or more, though I believe we need an increase in the total slots available, too little), but I have been seeing more and more people doing this with less and less players in game. Some people really go crazy with it and sometimes there is literally NO WAY to get hossies without definately being killed.

I would like all of us to discuss the advantages/disadvantages and reprecussions of this. Also, after we have a majority in agreeance (LOL really just the admins approval) we should set up some regulations or guidelines to prevent further abuse.

Please, give me some feedback!

**Tempus** · 02-14-2005, 01:27 PM

I believe it only adds to the game/map, and it is generally supported by CAL play. For example, a CAL map review of de_prodigy recommends shooting the chairs to cover the bomb after it is planted at bombsite A to help delay the CTs from defusing the bomb.

**Yer Mom** · 02-14-2005, 01:29 PM

Eh... touchy subject as usual.

Furniture is put in the game to be moved and destroyed. I do believe that the filing cabinets in Office should be destroyable, and the chairs as well. But, that room of Office is probably the most defendable room in the entire game.

This can't exactly be "regulated" as the arguement would be, "If it's in the game, let us use it."

Plus, if the CT team is tactical and organized, then that room should be the last that is infiltrated and should be easily taken.

Concider this. Instead of a team of 3 CT's going into a defended room, two teams of 3 go in seperate ways. There's no way that the 2 or 3 T's in the room could clear 6 people, especially if coming from two different directions.

With the less and less users pending when it's being done, this could be a problem. I could understand adding guidelines on this matter, but definately not in a full server. Grenades, flashes, and smokes will make easy pickens of this room. One nade will not kill a hostie that isn't already damaged. If the hostie is already damaged, he may die, so the best plan to go on is flash/smoke and go...

I normally smoke first, throw flash through smoke, rush in... clear it... take hosties...

Wee... done..

That's my 2 cents..

-Mom

**CingularDuality** · 02-14-2005, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Tempus

I believe it only adds to the game/map, and it is generally supported by CAL play. For example, a CAL map review of de_prodigy recommends shooting the chairs to cover the bomb after it is planted at bombsite A to help delay the CTs from defusing the bomb.

Ahem... CAL play? Who cares about CAL play?

Anyway, back to the issue at hand. I haven't seen where moving the furniture has made it so the hossies can't be captured. Is that what you're saying, Fox? The only thing that I've seen is the filing cabinet at T spawn and the filing cabinet at the middle intersection in the long hall that affects gameplay.

**grey** · 02-14-2005, 03:27 PM

I can understand using the environment you have as a barricade. I can also understand why it makes it a pain in the butt for the CT's on the map. I've personally encountered it where there were filing cabinets laying down in front of a doorway, so I just smoked and flashed my way through.

The problem is how valve decided to do the physics for the props. You can't jump ontop of most chairs or filing cabinets, which is a crock. If you were able to jump ontop of them it would change things abit, and would just make it to be an obstacle the T's or CT's could get across, but enough of a slowdown to make someone vulnerable.

**FOX9** · 02-14-2005, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Ahem... CAL play? Who cares about CAL play?

Anyway, back to the issue at hand. I haven't seen where moving the furniture has made it so the hossies can't be captured. Is that what you're saying, Fox? The only thing that I've seen is the filing cabinet at T spawn and the filing cabinet at the middle intersection in the long hall that affects gameplay.

Agreed, if you care about CAL, go play RTCW or something.

Yes, hostages don't jump very well. Due to myself and others having an actual brain, we can logically try to move over/around the object. Most of the time we are successful. However, hostages don't have a brain. The don't try to run then jump at the right distance then crouch to make it through a small space. Or whatever situation it might be. THIS makes it difficult to play tactically if you cant rescue the objective. It turns into a DM, WHICH I think most of the people that do it, thats what their looking for.

**furin** · 02-14-2005, 06:31 PM

Personally, I don't use this technique when I'm on the T side of things. I find it a bit 'cheap'. However, it does not bother me when I'm on the CT side. Reason for this is that I know to expect it and if you just buy a grenade, roll it up to the pile of debris, and *Bang*, you have a clear entrance. Never really found it to be much of an obstacle.

~furin

**asch** · 02-14-2005, 06:48 PM

It doesn't bother me when the T's use this tactic. I actually think that the defending team would try to put up blockades to entrances if they had hostages. However, if it restricts the hostages from leaving, that's a different story.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-14-2005, 07:28 PM

Tempus, I thought your reference to CAL was valid. Keep the ideas coming. I realize what should be obvious to anyone who's known you for a while: no, you're not going to bend over backwards to do whatever CAL does JUST because CAL does it, but you do recognize that CAL is a large organization that puts a lot of thought into these tactics (these types of decisions) and how they impact the game's balance and playability. I realize what should be obvious: there's value to be had there when WE are trying to decide what's best for OUR server.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why the hate against CAL?

...smug looks and an invitation to leave and play another game... damn guys.. tough crowd tonight.

**IceCold** · 02-14-2005, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why the hate against CAL?

No hate. The fact that we call our gameplay PCS has often been challenged by the fact that we don't play the same way as people that actually play CS for money. The two styles are completely different and while they may have some overlap, you can't just point at CAL and say, "See, they do it, so it's OK."

If arranging the filing cabinets makes it impossible to rescue the hostages, then it shouldn't be allowed. Keep in mind that the last CT might not have a frag grenade left to blow the filing cabinet out of the way. He should still be able to rescue the hostages, or the tactic should not be used, IMO.

**Tempus** · 02-14-2005, 09:23 PM

Arranging the file cabinets does not make it impossible to rescue the hostages, so this is a moot point. There are many other elements of gameplay that are more worthy of discussion.

**HairyNevus** · 02-14-2005, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why the hate against CAL?

Not hate, really. It's more the standpoint of: "We're TG. We should be think of our own tactics as an alternative reference for other forum discussions. Not referencing or being influenced by someone else". Which is valid in that we should be thinking up our own ideas idependently catered to our own use. However, we can still look at what CAL or other top-end level gamers have to say as a reference. Not necessarily an influence, mind you.

As for the second subject at hand; I see no problem with it. There would be less of a problem if objects didn't push you back (when are full HL2 physics getting implemented?) because that's kinda annoying. However, hostages are better at "jumping" over things so it's not like it makes the whole rescue impossible; just more difficult. And...why would terrorists be nice?

Also, it gives away the Ts position and cover, so it's not all good for them.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-14-2005, 09:56 PM

I say be influenced.

Tempus wasn't trying to lay down the law because it happens in CAL.

I see where you guys were coming from, I was just turned off by the response his comment got. It seemed jumpy to me.

I see no reason why moving furniture justifies a rule of any kind.

**IceCold** · 02-14-2005, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Tempus

Arranging the file cabinets does not make it impossible to rescue the hostages, so this is a moot point.

At the intersection that is halfway down the long hallway, is it possible to lay the filing cabinets down so that you can't walk around them from where the hostages are? I know it's possible to block that small L shaped hallway at T spawn. Hostages can't jump over the filing cabinets, so that would make it impossible to rescue the hostages without moving the filing cabinets. Can you move the filing cabinets enough to clear a path by shooting at one end? I don't know, as I've never tried it. And there's still the very slim possibility that the CT trying to rescue is completely out of ammo, making it completely impossible to move the filing cabinet to rescue the hostages...

I agree that until this tactic is used in a cheezy manner, we don't need a rule, but I think it should be discouraged unless/until the hostage AI is improved...

**Pokerface** · 02-14-2005, 11:17 PM

If the furniture can be moved one way, can't it be moved in the other direction, too?

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