Downtown1

I'd like to ask a clarification on this thread. I was playing on de_view as a T, sniping a lot of rounds. Eventually, the CTs got smart and decided to ambush me up in the tower (Atomic and Dirtboy actually). Which is cool, cause otherwise I would've kept wiping out their guys at A. Now normally, I would think the T spawn is off limits, but in this case it makes sense that it wasn't.

However, when playing on de_menace_final next map, almost the same thing was happening with Sniper Bob. He was sniping A as Ts from the double doors (which again is very close to T spawn). With his help I think they won 4 rounds in a row.

So I thought, ok, if I communicate with my team I should be able to go around and flank him right, and defend site A from there? I asked a few people on my team if I can go do that (telling them of my intentions), and what do you know? The PCS and admins at the time pretty much said I can't.

My question is, what's the difference? In both cases, the intentions were made clear to members of the same team. In both cases, it was going very very close to T spawn, and defending one of the bomb sites from the new position. The only thing I can think of is that the guys on de_view were PCS and I was not.

Greflin

If he snipes from double doors, and you are defending A, there are SO many defensive positions you can take and not get sniped, he can't snipe half the map from his position.

Your spot you could snipe nearly anything that was above ground, totaly different. He could snipe a very small portion of the map, and inturn was doing far less for his team by sniping there than you were doing. It's no where near the same thing.

Atomic Dog

What Gref said.

And, as you noted, Dirt and I are both PCS-P. I don't understand why things need to be explained a hundred times.

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octorfunk

First of all, thanks for continuing this discussion guys, it's fun to bounce ideas around. Alright, now to the nitty gritty...

This might happen in a real-life situation, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a Terrorist player in a Counterstrike video game is almost never going to decide just to stay in their spawn with the bomb, or disconnect from the server because their objective was too risky. I'm all about realism, but let's be honest.

I'm with you %100 on this point. Sorry if my posts made it look like I want it to be "easy." I'm pretty sure I talked about what would make it "easier," "less difficult," things like that. If I wanted it to be easy, I'd try and get a hold of some hax or something that would make it ridiculously easy (which I would never do, just to make it clear).

As much as we might not want to admit, killing all of the enemy DOES equal a win. If all the Terrorists are dead, then they cannot plant the bomb, thus: the CT's have successfully "defended" the bombsite. I'm not saying that we abandon all the bombsites to go hunt down T's, but if we know where they are (we hear them on catwalks, footsteps, gunfire, reloading, etc.), then I don't have a problem with splitting the team into a guarding force and a recon force.

I guess we're just going to have to "agree to disagree" on this one, because every time the CT's eliminate all the T's before they can plant the bomb, we win the round. I don't know how else to look at it.

Sorry if I've misrepresented myself, when I may have said "easier," I usually mean "safer." Ex: by reconning and eliminating the terrorist force on our terms (as the CT's), it is much safer than walking into a ticking bombsite through pre-determined and known entrances that the T's are expecting us to come through.

Wow, I must have missed the whole message behind "Counter-terrorists win" after we have killed all the terrorists. If completing my objective as a CT = preventing the exploding of the bomb, then killing all the T's before they even plant the bomb = objective complete.

I think that most of us who have taken the time to register and post regularly in these forums are on the same page, just with slightly different angles. If I thought the TG server sucked and that the rules/expectations were lame, I wouldn't waste my time posting and responding to posts in these forums... I'd simply play somewhere else.

Even though I like to debate various tactics (KH vs. Bombsite defense), I very rarely do anything out of the ordinary in the TG server. When I first joined (a week ago) I got called out for "rushing," and I haven't strayed far from my team since (except when absolutely necessary to get to a ticking bomb). I like the rules, and it's so much more fun to play together as a unit that communicates. The tactics I am discussing are (at best) for use in extreme and rare scenarios(Ex:if I spot the bomber alone in a hallway outside the Bombsite, I'm going to take him out, alert my team of where the bomb is down, and then defend that position. I'm sure that I would get accused of kill-hunting by someone, but I honestly think that this is the best option in this situation)

Hope to shoot (...er, I mean, keep you from completing your objectives...) you guys in-game soon.

-octorfunk

p.s. it's pretty ridiculous how we quote and respond to pretty much every sentence that is posted by someone else (like I just did), we should be lawyers or something.

Dirtboy

There is a reason why we dont play this map anymore. And this being one of them. Granted we were close to the T spawn, but only the one entrance. I could say that you were sniping close to our spawn, but I didnt want to waste my breathe because we all know that it is a really small map and everything is close to everything. I didnt want to make this a big deal but obviously it has and now I am kinda mad about this whole situation. So what you are trying to say is that basically what it comes down to, is that we were both PCS and you weren't. Thats the reason you lost the arguement? No it is not, the reason the majoirty of the PCSP during the match thought it was legit was because you were sniping our guys on the way to their positions. Yes, I said "on their way" this means from spawn to the forward postions. What we we did was valid, and in no-way-shape-or-form killhunting.

Plus, good call on the name drops...a simple pm would have been sufficient enough.

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|TG-6th| Dirtboy
Need an Admin? | Want to help TG? | The 6th Devil's Brigade

What Is Schwa?

I'm just going to fall back on my original point and say you really just don't get it here than. Read the SOP, primer, etc.

The end of round message doesn't say "Counter-Terrorists completed their objective."

A win doesn't mean you did what you were supposed to. How can I make that more clear?

-Aaron

Downtown1

I'm not saying it was kill hunting or invalid. I agree that it was a good idea to take out the sniper on de_view.. I'm saying that when I asked to do a similar tactic on de_menace (next map after view), I was shut down, for reasons unknown to me.

Not sure what you mean by name drops, but so far the only reason I've guessed and Atomic Dog keeps repeating is that PCSPs are allowed to do this... because they're PCSPs.

Which is funny, because Root also describes the PCSPs as:

Atomic Dog

I thought the reasons were made clear to you when you made it an issue on the server. If they weren't made clear then, certainly they should be clear by now. It's not just a matter of being PCS, it's also a matter of the logistics of the map we were playing. A sniper in de_view covers an entire bombsite from one position. The sniper on de_menace only covers a fraction of a bombsite and not even very well. On de_view that sniper can not only cover the bombsite, but he can take out the defense moving to position and the bomb once it's been planted. On de_menace the sniper at DD is nothing more than supression fire, picking out anyone who pops their heads up or comes up middle. He cannot cover the bomb or prevent the defense from taking up defensive positioning. Are the differences clear now that it's been explained again?

He means that it's pretty rude to drop names like that and make an issue with PEOPLE rather than TACTICS without first trying to send a PM to said people or an admin (if you really believe it's an issue). That being said, it irritates me too.



I think you grossly misunderstood what root was saying, not that he's wrong about what PCS is...but you're wrong about why he said it. I'll leave that to him to clarify if need be.

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Greflin

If the difference isn't clear before you even asked the question then you are completely missing the whole idea behind TG and PCS. They are totally different situations they have nothing in common. It would be like sending a person to T spawn on dust 2, because some one is sniping the middle. It is not that important, and doesn't need to be taken out. When you can take out over half the map including the ct spawn, that is within reason to go and take you out.

At bomb site A on, Menace you can cover it VERY well without being seen. You can put a person or two at the bottom of the tunnel where they can see up the road to where the t's come out, and 1 or 2 more up higher in the tunnels to take down the t's once they come into the site. The sniper at the double door is really pointless and if he was killing anyone that was their own fault for being in the open instead of making use of the more than sufficient cover provided.

I see a clear difference and see why you were shut down. It is really simple.

Downtown1

Greflin, were you on there when we were playing de_view? I can't remember .

I went around de_view and de_menace_final marking up the areas the sniper can see and (for view) areas that are safe from the sniper.

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de_view:
http://www.swrebellion.com/igor/de_view_sniper.jpg

The red highlighted areas are where the sniper can pretty much see, I did a lot of this by running around all over the map with a scout and seeing from where the sniper can shoot you and where the sniper can't.

Blue areas denote areas where you can run around safely with the sniper not seeing you. I tried to make the areas closest to A the most accurate, since that's what CTs are supposed to be defending.

The red X is where the bomber can plant so the sniper doesn't see him or bomb (incase CTs take over the sniper nest).

The green circles are the positions with the most visibility of A, also with the most cover. For the circles in the buildings on the left, you'll have to go on the window ledge to get better visibility. If you are on the circles on the right half, you'll probably need smokes to run past sniper visibility areas to B if B site is jeopardized.

Conclusions:
It is still possible to defend bomb site A very well even with a sniper in the tower, but it will be somewhat harder if Ts manage to plant the bomb down in the middle. Incase CTs need to move from B to A, they can safely get in range by going underground B to stairs at A (but riskier using ladder at B).

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de_menace_final:
http://www.swrebellion.com/igor/de_menace_sniper.jpg

Red highlighted areas are the same as before. Dark red area is what I count as the sniper area this time, since there's no clear tower. There are no blue areas, the sniper can't see anywhere its not red instead.

The green X is where the bomber can plant so the sniper can (barely) see someone defusing it. You have to do it all the way on the top-left edge of the bomb site.

If the CT defuses the bomb in that spot while standing he will get shot by the sniper very quickly. If crouching, he will be much harder to hit but still doable because you can see the top of his head.

If the sniper moves up past the white car 3 seconds north of his spot, he will gain much better visibility of the defuser and should even be able to get a HS on him while crouching. On the flip side, there will be much less cover there against CTs with Bullpups (and M4 is less significant that far away).

CTs should be at both green dots to be able to watch the entire bomb site A. While they won't be shot by the sniper, they will be able to do almost nothing (except throwing grenades) against Ts who rush up the river/side. This is in contrast with de_view, where you can cover a much larger radius around the bomb site without being afraid of the sniper.

There are 3 other areas near A (2 in the water, 1 closer to A by the brick roofs) that you can be safe from the sniper at, but they are marginalized because the west water spot is too far away from A, the south water spot too close to Ts to get there before they do, and the non-water spot has no cover and a CT will be mowed down by Ts rushing up stairs if he goes there.

Also note that if the sniper keeps moving around, he will be able to see CTs coming down the middle route, potentially sniping them before they are able to arrive through A going to middle (or at least notifying his teammates they are coming). The only 100% safe route from B to A is to go through CT spawn (wasting valuable time) as CTs.

Other important observations:
If the CT sniper at A is crouching, he will not be able to see the T sniper at double doors. At that very long range, it is very very hard to get a headshot on the enemy while standing, since the bullet seems to go to the side no matter what. But the T sniper can crouch down there, and have 100% accuracy and headshot the CT sniper with ease. Given two equal skill snipers, the T sniper will take out the CT sniper almost all of the time because of this.

Conclusions:
The Ts should always try to plant the bomb on the green X. As long as there is a good sniper near double doors, and nobody rushes the sniper from the middle, the Ts will have someone to fall back on incase the CTs break through the T defence after the bomb has been planted. However, if the Ts are assaulting A, then the CTs will be hardpressed to do much until the Ts are practically at A.

This could be a good strategy:
If CTs hold double doors where the T sniper would usually be, the Ts will be cut off from the sniper. They also won't be able to assault A through double doors very successfully, since they'll probably get shot as soon as they pass through them. They will only be able to get to A through B, where there will be just as many CTs. If the Ts do decide to go to B, flanking the Ts by going south and then east could be invaluable. Otherwise, it is only necessary to defend DD and B.
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Actually maybe I could even turn these pictures into some kind of guides for TG newcomers or for people who don't know the maps well.

Greflin

The problem with this logic is rather or not the bomb has been placed, on View it didnt matter you were too much of a threat that you needed taken out asap. On Menace, the sniper at that position is NO THREAT prior to planting the bomb, after the bomb has been planted if you have enough men take him out, if not you can smoke the site to give you cover as well.

Now if the bomb was planted and you were told NOT to go after the sniper, this was information you left out, and should have stated right off. But if the bomb wasn't planted then you had no reason to go up and after that sniper, there is more than enough cover to defend the bombsite otherwise.

Golden

downtown u have to understand the difference between pub play and capt matches.. even if u communicate exactly where ur going if some nub watches u flank then automaticly hes gonna wanna flank. and then hes gonna get kicked for doing something he watched a tg member do. now in that capt game on italy dirtboy tactcally flank us ct's many a times. and that was in spirit of pcs standards and no nubs were on the server to immitate what was going on..

.02 well spent

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nhammen

You pointed it out yourself, in veiw there is only one spot in A that cannot be seen by the sniper, while in menace there is only one spot that can. Thus, a sniper on menace is marginalized. Additionally, on menace, the range is much smaller, so counter-sniping with bullpups is possible, whereas on veiw, it is a one on one sniping contest. That is why the CTs flanking you on veiw was better than your flanking of Sniper Bob on menace. Well, that and the CTs on veiw that flanked you were PCS, and knew what was within PCS play. I assume that they notified their team, and their team gave them the OK.

Vulcan

This has been discussed a million times in many other posts. objective does not equal win. That means you don't go for a win at any cost. You stick with the objective and get the win by that means.

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Root

If some nub sees you calling him that, he's likely to be offended. I know I would be.

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