JoshZeitlin

Ok... The map is Italy, you have just joined the game as a T. You have 3 other team-mates. You assign the scout to cover LH, the MP5 to cover front door to house, the AK to cover Aptmt, and you.... you want to cover middle.

You are thinking to yourself: "Behind the box to watch cellars is too well known, as is ANYWHERE immediately above or along stairs - you'll just get flashed and burned. Where to go? Where to go?"

My answer has often been inside the space at the END of middle overlooking the ENTIRE middle avenue leading up to stairs and T spawn. (If you are a T on the bridge part looking out over middle, it is the dark part of the wall at the back right of the avenue).

While I personally see the sense in the spot, people often question the PCS'ness of the move. I put it up to you to decide: Here is my argument FOR the spot.

A) From this forward position I can hear footsteps in Aptmts AND and near LH... priceless source of intel to send back to the team.
B) Middle is the SINGLE MOST SUCCESSFULL breach point to house on the map and the spot covers it like no other.
C) In terms of distance from hosty house... it is a heck of alot closer than Aptmt roof! Maybe 3 seconds shorter than the end of LH? Close enough relatively speaking that proximity to hosties should not be an issue.

NOTE: I base my opinion FOR the spot on two assumptions
1) That the spot is being used as a forward observation/ambush point. Any Ts that move there and start peaking around the corners toward LH or Aptmt is looking for kills. Basically, you either stay put or run back to more traditional spots.
2) There is someone watching Apt and LH ... this way you have enough warning to provide support in reaction to a blitz at either point.

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

Mateo

Not.

I talked with the admins about this, and we are in agreement: that spot is too far to get back to cover the main objective (the hostages).

My counter-argument to yours is: what benefit can you achieve from that position that you cannot achieve from the stairwell near the winecellar, or from the bridge or apartment roof?

None.

While there are no boundaries, you have to think in terms of "can I get back to support the team, and cover the hostages, if everything goes pear shaped?" From those upper level positions, you can.

From the CT approach areas, you cannot.

JoshZeitlin

None? There is a reason that middle is so successfull!! A few flashes and some quick movement COMPLETELY nullifies any attempt to defend the choke point from ANY of the spots you mentioned. They flash,, you have to run back in the house blind (and hopefully dont get picked off from LH/Apt sniper in the process) then there is the EMPTY threat silouetted in the window -- cannot tell you how many times I owned the idiot standing there with my Deagle (not to mention the Apt sniper that regularly takes him out). And then what? Your stuck in the house, surrounded. In my experience... once they are outside house the Ts almost ALWAYS loose. Why? B/c at that point there are very little tacticts left for the Ts, its do or die time.

No! The only place to stop them at middle is during the breach, and THAT can only happen IF Ts KNOW ABOUT IT IN ADVANCE.

About the distance from hosties thing... COME ON! I'll race you.. you can start at Apt roof and I'll start in the corner... you wouldn't get there any faster..

Reconsider!

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

Mateo

Using the same argument, being in the CT spawn, or the market, are just as effective.

That's PCS play.

JoshZeitlin

CT spawn makes no sense but the market point is a big touche...

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

Tempus

An argument can be made to be ANYWHERE on any map if you are creative enough.

To prevent total deathmatch, some considerations have to be made.

1. You are responsible for your teammates. This means you need to be able to back them up promptly when needed.
2. You are responsible for the hostages. This means you need to be able to get back and defend them.

Any place that makes any of the above more difficult should be considered 'too far'. You cannot respond to a rush up long hall if you are all the way down the middle hall. You cannot help contain an apartment rush when you are that far away.

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FROM THE TACTICAL GAMER PRIMER.
3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

poe

The apartment roof is a bad comparison, too, Josh :P I truly believe the only reason admins doesn't consider it too far under all circumstances is because only the Ts have access to get up there, so it's not like it's invading upon CT territory.

If the CTs take the hostages, and you're camped out at middle... you might not even know they are gone. The team doesn't always do as it should, and it does happen sometimes. In that scenario, you fail your objective.

Another thing, about being unable to defend the middle. I have found it to most typically be a deathtrap for the CTs to try to flash and run up. Ts can hide on both sides of the stairway, the apartment hallway, that tiny half-alley, and in/near the house. Even long hall. I cannot begin to say how many times a team has flashed up the middle, rushed, and been completely annihilated.

And lastly... what if the CTs DON'T come middle, and they walk everywhere so you can't hear anything? Then you are useless and have wasted yourself and/or the time in that position for your team.

/poe

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Mateo

I'm going to say it before Root does: all of this has been discussed ad nauseum in CS:S General Discussion, as well as in the Tactics forums. A little search function might save a kitty.

poe

Little hasn't, these days.

See: http://www.tacticalgamer.com/360196-post1.html

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JoshZeitlin

Poe... you are way too talented of a player for this statement hold any GENERAL significance. NORMALLY, middle works better than 70% of the time for CTs (this ratio goes up if you have decent snipers working LH or Apt). Your occassional ability to play like a deity doesn't mean middle is easy to defend; it means you are a good player.

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Josh -
Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

poe

LMAO, thanks for the flattery, but I am pretty much always slaughtered every time I go up the middle. I only take cellars/middle when I'm willing to sacrifice myself I MUCH prefer the apartments... or even long hall, really. I can't stand walking into a possible gauntlet of enemies, which is what I see the middle as. *shudders*

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Mateo

I find that there are no real conclusions to draw on cs_italy as far as success goes.

Even if a middle rush works one round, it may not work at all if the T's regroup the next. A variety of strategies are necessary to carry the map for a full 9 rounds.

Having Talented players certainly helps, but then again, I've seen the best and brightest die in the first salvo as well. Even best player that I have seen here is not enough to carry a round on their own, which is why teamwork is so critical.

Buck Fush

Another point to consider is that your teammates have no good way of backing you up should you require it. IRL we would never put ourselves into a position like that because we would have no way to retreat. If 3 hostiles come around that corner you're going to die and IRL we'd never sacrifice our lives for that little of a gain.

girlscoutcookie

Well stated, Buck, although the converse is that they are the terrorists... Self sacrifice is a common mentality as opposed to the team-centric style of counter-terrorists... but that's just flavour, I still agree with your point.

poe

On the TG server, mind you.

And not all terrorists are suicidal martyrs. That's what those in the sociological department call "stereotyping." And stereotyping is bad.

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