bunnyhopping an unintended movement system "side effect"

**Wyzcrak** · 09-13-2005, 08:50 PM

Fuzzy and Caliban are managers for the Dystopia game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caliban

we played around with bunnyhopping early in the piece and have come up with a very solid and fluent movement system. It isn't like CS where you get penalized for jumping but its also not as extreme as Quake. Ted has created the perfect movement system for Dystopia that allows players to move quite fluently without too much restriction but not overdone.

That led us to believe that bunnyhopping was included by design and had a specific purpose, much as with Natural Selection.

kormendi asked Fuzzy, management lead, about their "movement system" and bunnyhopping and this is what he had to say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Bunnyhopping is a side effect of our movement system, which like Quake gives you a small boost to your forwards velocity when you jump and allows you some control while you're in mid air. Bunnyhopping wasn't specifically included to allow for either speed gains or avoidance, it's just that stopping it would break the rest of the movement system.

I'd say that gaining speed from bunnyhopping was "intended" only because we're aware of it and chose not to "fix" it because it would mean breaking the over all feel that we're after. If you guys put in place a "gentleman's rule" that you're not allow to jump during a firefight, that's up to you.

This shows quite the opposite of what many of us originally believed. It shows that bunnyhopping does not, in fact, have a specific purpose or design in Dystopia gameplay. It is an accepted oversight, the removal of which would break the movement style they intend for the game.

ImJustMito · 09-13-2005, 09:02 PM

Well, I'm glad that it wasn't intended... Do we have any idea as to if we're going to create a rule that forbids the blatant misuse of this? (I say blatant because it is possible to accidently "bunnyhop" from time to time...)

Karkianman101 · 09-13-2005, 09:03 PM

Thats fine. They took it into account for balancing, and said that any benefit is negligible, and they specifically stated that bunny hopping in cyber space was an important skill. Was the b-hop in NS intentionally included or was it an accepted oversight?

Wintermute · 09-13-2005, 09:21 PM

Can someone please define what we mean by bunnyhopping and "crackhopping." When most of the HL community says bunnyhopping they mean pressing sideways and jump and turning through 90 degrees during each jump which results in an increased speed forwards.

Jumping up and down repeatedly "like a rabbit" while standing still, pressing forwards or whatever is another issue.

Can I also quote some more "evidence"

Quote:

Players good at bunnyhopping in other games should try to replicate these skills, as high speeds can be obtained throughout Cyberspace. You can also adjust your mouse sensitivity in Cyberspace using cybersensitivity command in the console

http://dystopia-game.com/newplayerguide/#cyberspace

Frankly, I don't care if people are bunnyhopping or not.

**Wyzcrak** · 09-13-2005, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karkianman101

Thats fine. They took it into account for balancing, and said that any benefit is negligible, and they specifically stated that bunny hopping in cyber space was an important skill. Was the b-hop in NS intentionally included or was it an accepted oversight?

It was an oversight which came to be discovered as an key component to game balance. The NS devs didn't choose to let bunnyhopping stay because removing it would break any movement ability... they chose to let bunnyhopping stay because removing it would break core game balance. To answer your question, the bunnyhopping in NS is an accepted oversight which has since become intentionally-included.

**Wyzcrak** · 09-13-2005, 09:25 PM

Bunnyhopping -vs- Crackjumping:
http://www.tacticalgamer.com/showpos...69&postcount=2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintermute

Can someone please define what we mean by bunnyhopping and "crackhopping." When most of the HL community says bunnyhopping they mean pressing sideways and jump and turning through 90 degrees during each jump which results in an increased speed forwards.

Jumping up and down repeatedly "like a rabbit" while standing still, pressing forwards or whatever is another issue.

Can I also quote some more "evidence"
http://dystopia-game.com/newplayerguide/#cyberspace

Frankly, I don't care if people are bunnyhopping or not.

If I had to guess, I'd say we'll just ignore the bunnyhopping issue and let it ride. I think it may still have unique merit in cyberspace. My point was to dispel the misunderstanding that it was designed to have some significant impact in meatspace.

Karkianman101 · 09-13-2005, 09:28 PM

Ergo, is it not possible that with time and future versions and patches that the Bunny Hopping here may not become integral to the game? As far as I've been a witness, it doesnt hurt the games. People jumping makes their aim worse, and isnt that much worse for you since location damage isnt THAT important. What counts most is that the bullet hits them, and regular jumping doesnt displace them that much.

**Wyzcrak** · 09-13-2005, 09:34 PM

Anyone arguing that it's impossible for bunnyhopping to become an key component to game movement in the future can tell the future and should have his own 900 number.

Anyone arguing that it's likely or unlikely for bunnyhopping to become an key component to game movement in the future should share the knowledge which drives his speculation.

Nothing I say now is official, but it looks like bunnyhopping for the sake of moving in meatspace isn't going to get you popped IN THIS GAME, as it threatens and achieves little. The moment that turns into (or, uh-oh, LOOKS TO AN ADMIN like) crackjumping is the moment you'll get popped.

Again, we're still putting the pieces of this together, but that's my hunch at the moment.

**kormendi** · 09-13-2005, 09:54 PM

Bunnyhopping as a method to increase speed is insignificant unless in cyberspace.

Bunnyhopping/Crackjumping as a method of avoiding fire is quite significant. Teams must beable to bust into a room shooting. There arnt enought places to hide and sneak from. The defending team waits on the other side of a door, If people dont rush in hopping around there will be little movement past the bottlenecks in the maps.

**Wyzcrak** · 09-13-2005, 09:54 PM

Ah, more from Fuzzy, via kormendi, who is working to best understand the reasoning behind the special care shown the Dystopia movement style:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

We took the standard HL2 and CSS movement code and stripped out all the limiting that Valve has added over the course of development. We felt that the default movement code felt sluggish and unresponsive, though it's obvious that Valve were trying to hinder bhopping and crackjumping to make CSS more realistic. However, these extra levels of complexity made movement less fluid. The other big change we made was to lower the gravity by 30%, allowing players to jump higher and longer, giving them more hang time.

We are strong believers in the idea that simple movement code makes the game feel more solid. By stripping out all the realism hacks which Valve had added to the old Quake1 movement code we feel that Dystopia gives the players more control and puts more skill back into moving around the gamespace.

The cyberspace movement physics were coded from the ground up and aren't based on any of Valve's code at all.

So, in summary, they don't want your movements bound to reality. At the same time, based on how minor the bunnyhop speed increase seems to be, they don't care for folks in meatspace to be bouncing around the room like crazy, either.

As far as movement goes, it sounds pretty level-headed to me so far. The movement stuff sounds like it could pass here pretty easily. If they intend to assist players looking to jump to avoid fire, that's another story.

**Vulcan** · 09-13-2005, 11:11 PM

In a game such as this, I think it's more of the style to be using jump shooting. In cyberspace jumping and using it as a skill is a must.

Pfhor · 09-13-2005, 11:37 PM

My views are simple: if there is a dystopia TG server, any kind of jumping should be allowed (whether it is jumping to gain speed, jumping to avoid fire, or simply jumping to reach a higher platform). This practice of jumping does not diminish the TG gameplay style, nor is it unfair in any way. Until the developers say one or more of those types of jumps is blantant exploit and will be fixed, we should allow them.

**kormendi** · 09-13-2005, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pfhor

This practice of jumping does not diminish the TG gameplay style, nor is it unfair in any way.

I dont think fairness is an issue, but protecting the spirit of TG is. I would like to see jumping unrestricted in this game. My feeling is that the gameplay relies heavily on evasion tecniques, but I would be open to playing a week with restrictions in place as a trial to see how it impacts gameplay.

Spyder · 09-14-2005, 12:34 AM

Well, after another fruitful game of playing, My conclusions.
1: Bunnyhopping gains you no advantage except perhaps as a light. A medium or a heavy bunnyhopping is just as easy to hit as if they were walking. lights are a bit more difficult due to their running speed being so much higher. Another factor to consider is that if the demo map is what we can expect from maps in general, most of the fighting will be close quarters combat, where bunnyhopping really doesn't avail you at all.

2. "Crackjumping" in this mod doesn't seem to me to be really bad. I don't see people pulling bf2 movement, where they're jumping every possible chance to avoid fire. About the only time I see it is when somebody is trying to avoid a spider nade, or during a chokepoint rush, where they enter a doorway and immediately jump out of the doorway, etc. If this is all the worse it gets, I don't think we need to worry about it from a TG standpoint, because I consider these things to be more gameplay elements than "trying to avoid fire". I don't consider what goes on in cyberspace to be part of the gameplay. That's a seperate mini-game insofar as the rules conerning it are (and bunnyhopping is essential there, because of how the movement system is set up, and the time is energy aspect)

Even though they weren't "part of the game" by the dev team, I don't think they are the problems that their names imply. Simply put, Bhopping/crackjumping in dyst *is not* the same as bhopping/crackjumping in other games. Perhaps a rule about excessive crackjumping would be most appropriate, if we need to compromise.

09-13-2005, 09:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
ImJustMito Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 253	Re: bunnyhopping an unintended movement system "side effect" Well, I'm glad that it wasn't intended... Do we have any idea as to if we're going to create a rule that forbids the blatant misuse of this? (I say blatant because it is possible to accidently "bunnyhop" from time to time...) __________________

09-13-2005, 09:03 PM	#3 (permalink)
Karkianman101 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Lansing Age: 20 Posts: 1,546	Re: bunnyhopping an unintended movement system "side effect" Thats fine. They took it into account for balancing, and said that any benefit is negligible, and they specifically stated that bunny hopping in cyber space was an important skill. Was the b-hop in NS intentionally included or was it an accepted oversight?

09-13-2005, 09:28 PM	#7 (permalink)
Karkianman101 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Lansing Age: 20 Posts: 1,546	Re: bunnyhopping an unintended movement system "side effect" Ergo, is it not possible that with time and future versions and patches that the Bunny Hopping here may not become integral to the game? As far as I've been a witness, it doesnt hurt the games. People jumping makes their aim worse, and isnt that much worse for you since location damage isnt THAT important. What counts most is that the bullet hits them, and regular jumping doesnt displace them that much.

09-13-2005, 09:34 PM	#8 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,139	Re: bunnyhopping an unintended movement system "side effect" Anyone arguing that it's impossible for bunnyhopping to become an key component to game movement in the future can tell the future and should have his own 900 number. Anyone arguing that it's likely or unlikely for bunnyhopping to become an key component to game movement in the future should share the knowledge which drives his speculation. Nothing I say now is official, but it looks like bunnyhopping for the sake of moving in meatspace isn't going to get you popped IN THIS GAME, as it threatens and achieves little. The moment that turns into (or, uh-oh, LOOKS TO AN ADMIN like) crackjumping is the moment you'll get popped. Again, we're still putting the pieces of this together, but that's my hunch at the moment. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

09-13-2005, 09:54 PM	#9 (permalink)
kormendi Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Fairfax, Virginia Age: 27 Posts: 2,149	Re: bunnyhopping an unintended movement system "side effect" Bunnyhopping as a method to increase speed is insignificant unless in cyberspace. Bunnyhopping/Crackjumping as a method of avoiding fire is quite significant. Teams must beable to bust into a room shooting. There arnt enought places to hide and sneak from. The defending team waits on the other side of a door, If people dont rush in hopping around there will be little movement past the bottlenecks in the maps. __________________ Team Fortress 2 Admin \| NS Admin PM me if you have any questions/concerns regarding the server.

09-13-2005, 11:11 PM	#11 (permalink)
Vulcan Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Montreal Age: 30 Posts: 7,313	Re: bunnyhopping an unintended movement system "side effect" In a game such as this, I think it's more of the style to be using jump shooting. In cyberspace jumping and using it as a skill is a must. __________________ TG Primer - CSS SOP's - INS SOP's

09-13-2005, 11:37 PM	#12 (permalink)
Pfhor Banned Join Date: Mar 2005 Age: 19 Posts: 138	Re: bunnyhopping an unintended movement system "side effect" My views are simple: if there is a dystopia TG server, any kind of jumping should be allowed (whether it is jumping to gain speed, jumping to avoid fire, or simply jumping to reach a higher platform). This practice of jumping does not diminish the TG gameplay style, nor is it unfair in any way. Until the developers say one or more of those types of jumps is blantant exploit and will be fixed, we should allow them.

09-14-2005, 12:34 AM	#14 (permalink)
Spyder Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: MN (Middle of Nowhere, MN) Age: 25 Posts: 996	Re: bunnyhopping an unintended movement system "side effect" Well, after another fruitful game of playing, My conclusions. 1: Bunnyhopping gains you no advantage except perhaps as a light. A medium or a heavy bunnyhopping is just as easy to hit as if they were walking. lights are a bit more difficult due to their running speed being so much higher. Another factor to consider is that if the demo map is what we can expect from maps in general, most of the fighting will be close quarters combat, where bunnyhopping really doesn't avail you at all. 2. "Crackjumping" in this mod doesn't seem to me to be really bad. I don't see people pulling bf2 movement, where they're jumping every possible chance to avoid fire. About the only time I see it is when somebody is trying to avoid a spider nade, or during a chokepoint rush, where they enter a doorway and immediately jump out of the doorway, etc. If this is all the worse it gets, I don't think we need to worry about it from a TG standpoint, because I consider these things to be more gameplay elements than "trying to avoid fire". I don't consider what goes on in cyberspace to be part of the gameplay. That's a seperate mini-game insofar as the rules conerning it are (and bunnyhopping is essential there, because of how the movement system is set up, and the time is energy aspect) Even though they weren't "part of the game" by the dev team, I don't think they are the problems that their names imply. Simply put, Bhopping/crackjumping in dyst is not the same as bhopping/crackjumping in other games. Perhaps a rule about excessive crackjumping would be most appropriate, if we need to compromise. __________________ a.k.a. NinjaPirateAssassin Celibacy is not Hereditary. Everybody should believe in something - I believe I'll have another drink. Happiness is like wetting your pants, everyone can see it but only you can feel the warmth. Flying is easy, Just throw yourself at the ground and miss!

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