07-28-2006, 01:19 AM #1
Training the Robust Team
This is mostly just ripped out of IRC. I want to make it clear that we are not talking about how any scrimming team (if there is one) will be organized. The admin's have made it clear that there are other discussions and this discussion is hypothetical. I've cut non-related discussion and all bolding is my post-haste addition.
22:59 < medwards> Yeah us mediums are good at killing everything. [...] 22:59 <+Zephyr> mediums have no disadvantages, no advantages either, but its a good class to be 23:00 <+TheAdj`> they're good against everything but spiders 23:00 <+Zephyr> I would prefer a team of 4 mediums, 2 lights and 2 heavies to anything else 23:00 < medwards> and if I was against you I'd do the same thing but put in an extra heavy for the crunchy power. 23:00 <+Zephyr> well it depends on cyberspace 23:01 <+TheAdj`> more lights, less mediums 23:01 <+Zephyr> mediums being able to hold a cyberdeck is a good insurance policy should your lights be busy 23:01 <+TheAdj`> need at least 3 deckers 23:01 <+Zephyr> this depends on the objective 23:01 <+Zephyr> but for a good portion, yes 23:01 <+Zephyr> however I would argue that with three deckers you should be able to have a rotational defense 23:02 <+TheAdj`> unless its like the first part of vaccine or something 23:02 < medwards> We're basically discussing Scrimming Strats at this point right? 23:02 < medwards> I have to say that I think your team is the good base for everyone to train off of [...] 23:02 <+Zephyr> 4 2 2? 23:03 < medwards> but you absolutely need 1+ person in each class to be able to instantly switch to another class to counter or exploit opfor 23:03 <+Zephyr> which is why I think mediums should be doing primary fighting 23:03 <+Zephyr> as they can die the most, while the heavies should actually be just behind them [...] 23:04 < medwards> this sound suspiciously like my post in tactics, didn't you write a rebuttal? [...] 23:05 < medwards> you wrote a counter to my post, when did you decide mediums should lead and heavies do cleanup? 23:05 < medwards> http://www.tacticalgamer.com/dystopia-tactics-map-discussions/64994-teamwork.html 23:06 < medwards> Anyways, I want to go one further on your fixed initial class disposition and say that we actually map each positions implants. 23:07 < medwards> Then I'd say you designate 1/2 the team as potential swing positions. these people have more of a burden because they have to be trained on multiple implant and class dispositions. 23:07 <+Zephyr> hmm true 23:08 <+Zephyr> copy that out of the window med, paste it into a post
07-28-2006, 11:05 AM #2
Re: Training the Robust Team
I think everyone should be training in at least 4-6 loadouts personally.
Example- My Main load outs
Main Load Out
Load Out: Ninja
Weapon: Bolt Gun
Implants: Cloak, Cyberdeck, Thermal, Sound Suppersor, SCS
Play Style: Primarily a "ninja" role, this role is designed for stealth operations. The use of cloak and SS should be used to sneak past enemy lines and stations to obtain objectives, either as a cause of distraction (providing emp bursts or bolt gun shock waves to draw off enemy troops and weaken them as a premptive strick before the main team attacks) or as a tactic after the main team caues a distraction (should be used in conjective with other ninja roles). Not designed as a combative role, this role can be used for "mop-up" work after the opposing force has been hit by the main team. Useful in an "Offensive" Defense for counter-deckter meat bods and distraction roles. Cyberdeck can be interchanged with a TAC scanner as needed.
Load Out: Flight
Weapon: Bolt Gun
Implants: Cloak, Cyberdeck, Thermal, Legboosters
Play Style: Very similar to the ninja, but this role is designed for more combative and hostile action against the opposing team. The added speed boost and ability to get to hard to reach places makes this role Idea for occasional sniper and long distance distration. Also useful for counter sniper roles with the use of cover fire and controlled bursts of speed when being targetted. Cyberdeck can be interchanged with a TAC scanner as needed.
Load Out: Speak Softly, Big Stick
Weapon: Ion Cannon
Implants: Thermal, Sound Suppressor
Play Style: Typically used as an offensive role in a premptive strick. The Sound Suppressor allows the heavy to arrive without detection, often giving the soldier a chance to get a free ion shot in. The role is meant as heavy weapon support, as an ion combined with any arm from another armor will provide devestating results. Controlled use of spiders allow for better weakening of the opposing forces as well. Sound Suppressor can be interchanged with a LEg booster for a fast moving weapon. Useful on defensive to reach important choke points in time.
Load Out: Total Package
Weapon: Bolt Gun
Implants: SWT, Thermal, Sound Suppressor, Mediplant, Legboosters, SCS
Play Style: Highly supportive role. This role is meant to stick close to larger armors, providing information on enemy movement and health. The sound suppressor allows a moderate level of scouting and safety for the light armor. SWT can be replaced with a cyberdeck is needed. Bolt Gun can be replaced with the shotgun.
I personally believe each player needs to have at least 4-6 load outs mastered. I have these as my main 4, but I have at least 15 saved with minor variations and I know the role I play. I tend to be scout/support normaly, with a bit of technical assitance and decoy skills. I'm good at distraction and I'm hard to pin down because I focus on stealth operations. I make good use of EMP's and time my grenades well.
At the same time, while I don't have one listed, I have some generic Medium loadouts saved if I need to throw down some heavier firepower while still maintaining a cyberdeck. I know when to switch, when to adjust. I ussually use around 4-6 load outs each game, based on the objective and needs of my team.
07-28-2006, 12:33 PM #3
Re: Training the Robust TeamOriginally Posted by nulloperations
Here's what I find happens in pubs even if a good sense of teamwork and order is established:
- "We have too many lights, some of you should switch to heavier classes", no one knows who else is switching and to what classes. Suddenly you are overly medium heavy and lost well over half of your lights (I generally only tell people to do this when I want to cut the numbers to 2/3s)
- "We need more deckers", Everybody and their mom starts decking and you don't have enough informational headspace implants to adequately deal with threats
- "An opfor fell into power routing, someone go deal with him" and then half the team stops defending the important objective to go deal with some random light.
What I am suggesting is designating 8 team positions (Alpha thru Hotel for convenience) and deciding their loadouts. Further one must decide who needs to be trained to be flexible and who needs to be trained to be good at a single role. Combine this with hierarchical command structure (commander and team may be all that's necessary, but it needs to be top-down) and you can eliminate a lot of tactical chatter that can become difficult to parse in recent TG games I've played.
Now you have the following scenarios:
- "Bravo, switch to Medium decker with boosters. Golf, switch to Heavy with Ion/Thermals" (controlled and precise transitions to the team loadout)
- "Charlie and Delta, get cyberdecks and rotate with Alpha and Bravo" (again, controlled, precise)
- "Echo, drop to the power routing and eliminate the opfor you find. Let me know if they accomplished any decking" (tasking a single medium to a combat that's appropriate, prepared to receive data and retask a decker should it be necessary)
Later today I might post team loadout ideas (probably roughly based on the squad discussions we've already had) but right now I'm trying to pitch assigned positions.
07-28-2006, 12:34 PM #4
Re: Training the Robust Team
On a seperate note regarding tactical chatter, I think the Dys voicechat should be the chat you receive orders on. A seperate teamspeak/vent channel should be made for each tactical unit (deckers, outer onion, inner onion, etc.) where they can spam eachother with up to the minute tactical information. I don't know if this is allowed in official leagues or scrims or if it's even technically possible, but there should also be a 9th player someone who's job is to simply listen to the individual tactical channels and try to make sure the commander has a succinct idea of the game situation.
07-28-2006, 03:20 PM #5
Re: Training the Robust TeamOriginally Posted by medwardsBFCL TF2 league admin
07-28-2006, 09:17 PM #6
Re: Training the Robust Team
The whole team should be useing ts because if u are emped u can not hear any orders given to. Also its much more easyer to hear other people useing ts then in-game chat which will make less confusen.Instead of calling someone a noob, you should take that same amount of time to help them.